# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/321 "2011-12-07T02:45:06Z")
This is for you, too, **Condescending Robot** … > [@Voyager](#): > > What was being cheered about the death penalty? The quantity, one would assume, since no specific cases were mentioned. Especially bad this being Texas, where people with incompetent lawyers fry. They were cheering that there was someplace where they were still using the death penalty. There are people, myself included, who think it should be on the table and used. > [@Voyager](#): > > For the Marine? I’d suppose gayness was being booed. If that was the case, wouldn’t he have been booed as soon as he announced he was gay? He wasn’t. There are people who don’t think gays should serve in the military and would like to go back to Clinton’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. That’s what they were cheering. > [@Voyager](#): > > As for the illegals, surely you read the reactions of the other candidates? Perry’s comment was assholish. And dumb. One can very well have a heart and empathize with the illegals in question and be of the mind that we shouldn’t give any illegals any perks at all…that the more we do, the more we make sneaking in here more attractive. We should be making it _un_attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/322 "2011-12-07T02:53:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > They were cheering that there was someplace where they were still using the death penalty. There are people, myself included, who think it should be on the table and used. And, given the objective fact that innocent people have been executed and the death penalty is unevenly applied across races, the fact that you think the death penalty should be used means that you enjoy death and are a racist. > [@](#): > > There are people who don’t think gays should serve in the military and would like to go back to Clinton’s Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Because they don’t think homosexuals are people. If you think this, you must think they deserve human rights including equality. The contrapositive holds. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/323 "2011-12-07T04:17:08Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > And, given the objective fact that innocent people have been executed and the death penalty is unevenly applied across races, the fact that you think the death penalty should be used means that you enjoy death and are a racist. Given the objective fact that abortions are disproportionately used by minorities means that since you think that abortion is good you must be a racist. :dubious::rolleyes: Who knows maybe he wants to reform the death penalty? I’d prefer it be mandated for first-degree murder sentences so race doesn’t play a role incidentally. > [@](#): > > Because they don’t think homosexuals are people. If you think this, you must think they deserve human rights including equality. The contrapositive holds. I hear you here (no pun intended). I don’t see much good reason for Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell. But I wouldn’t say anybody who supports DADT is a homophobe. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/324 "2011-12-07T04:21:14Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > But I wouldn’t say anybody who supports DADT is a homophobe. I would; it’s _nothing but_ institutionalized bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/325 "2011-12-07T04:51:50Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > And, given the objective fact that innocent people have been executed and the death penalty is unevenly applied across races, the fact that you think the death penalty should be used means that you enjoy death and are a racist. > > Because they don’t think homosexuals are people. If you think this, you must think they deserve human rights including equality. The contrapositive holds. Do not make this discussion personal. Back off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/326 "2011-12-07T05:08:21Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Because they don’t think homosexuals are people. If you think this, you must think they deserve human rights including equality. The contrapositive holds. The argument, of course, is very, _very_ different. :rolleyes: I agree 100% that gay people should have the right to lawful marriages respected by all states, but strawmanning the argument to this extent just makes you look ridiculous, even to those who agree with you. Oh… Hang on, what’s this? > [@](#): > > And, given the objective fact that innocent people have been executed and the death penalty is unevenly applied across races, the fact that you think the death penalty should be used means that you enjoy death and are a racist. Stop talking. Now. If you don’t understand how absolutely ass-backwards and offensive this entire paragraph is, please just turn off your computer. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/327 "2011-12-07T05:17:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > They were cheering that there was someplace where they were still using the death penalty. There are people, myself included, who think it should be on the table and used. And because the death penalty is itself always and everywhere irredeemably wrong, all of those people (your self included) are wrong. And the people who cheer about it are, well, I won’t call them monsters, but they are behaving monstrously when they do so. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/328 "2011-12-07T07:08:53Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Given the objective fact that abortions are disproportionately used by minorities means that since you think that abortion is good you must be a racist. :dubious::roll eyes: Well done. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Who knows maybe he wants to reform the death penalty? Which is actually the case. I’d like to see it used much less often, only when there is the highest degree of certainty. But in those cases, much more expeditiously. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I hear you here (no pun intended). I don’t see much good reason for Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell. But I wouldn’t say anybody who supports DADT is a homophobe. Correct again. I used to be against gays in the military, for the reason that I think our military should be the best it can be—period—whether that means no gays, all gays, whatever. I don’t think that the unique roll our military plays should be less than it could for any reason. Miller showed me evidence of the integration of gays in other countries’ forces and that convinced me that there was no good reason to keep gays out. Quite the opposite. I will say that if the evidence went the other way, I’d be just as adamantly for keeping them out. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/329 "2011-12-07T07:12:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And because the death penalty is itself always and everywhere irredeemably wrong, all of those people (your self included) are wrong. You’re begging the question here. It’s always wrong because it’s wrong? Come on, you know better than this. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > And the people who cheer about it are, well, I won’t call them monsters, but they are behaving monstrously when they do so. :rolleyes: Okay, you think the death penalty is wrong and anyone who cheers for it being a tool that we have at our disposal is monster—“like”. Perhaps you can see the management about all people believing as you do. What the hell, let’s make it a sandwich::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/330 "2011-12-07T07:14:49Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > And, given the objective fact that innocent people have been executed and the death penalty is unevenly applied across races, the fact that you think the death penalty should be used means that you enjoy death and are a racist. > > Because they don’t think homosexuals are people. If you think this, you must think they deserve human rights including equality. The contrapositive holds. Rarely does a poster get so much wrong in such a short post. Well done! ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/331 "2011-12-07T08:57:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Given the objective fact that abortions are disproportionately used by minorities means that since you think that abortion is good you must be a racist. :dubious::rolleyes: Given the objective fact that rice is disproportionately used by asians means that since I think that rice is good I must be a racist. ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/332 "2011-12-07T14:40:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Given the objective fact that abortions are disproportionately used by minorities means that since you think that abortion is good you must be a racist. :dubious::rolleyes: Only if you’re under the mistaken apprehension that a large clump of cells is a person. Others properly view abortion as neither good nor bad, but as a morally neutral medical procedure. The fact that you want to abolish this procedure, which as you say is used disproportionately by minorities, speaks volumes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/333 "2011-12-07T15:01:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Given the objective fact that abortions are disproportionately used by minorities means that since you think that abortion is good you must be a racist. :dubious::rolleyes: If you’d stop to think about this for a second, you might understand that something people do under their own free will is different than something done to them by the state. You can understand that, right? > [@](#): > > Who knows maybe he wants to reform the death penalty? I’d prefer it be mandated for first-degree murder sentences so race doesn’t play a role incidentally. Not very Christian of you. In fact, wasn’t your Deity executed by the state? Was that a good thing? > [@](#): > > I hear you here (no pun intended). I don’t see much good reason for Don’t Ask and Don’t Tell. But I wouldn’t say anybody who supports DADT is a homophobe. DADT is inherently homophobic. The only reason I’ve seen, other than homophobia, to support it is being concerned about the effect if will have on the morale of the services. But I’m pretty sure most of the people with those concerns also hate homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/334 "2011-12-07T15:08:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re begging the question here. It’s always wrong because it’s wrong? Come on, you know better than this. I’m not “begging” jack. I’ll note that it was past 11 p.m. when your submitted your post, so I’ll presume that you didn’t keep your antecedents straight. Allow me to restate, and attempt to make it misunderstanding-proof: People who think the death penalty should be “on the table” are wrong, because the death penalty is always wrong. > [@magellan01](#): > > :rolleyes: Okay, you think the death penalty is wrong and anyone who cheers for it being a tool that we have at our disposal is monster—“like”. No, I don’t “think” the death penalty is wrong; the death penalty IS wrong, irrespective of what I think. Before I existed; after I no longer exist; even had I NEVER existed, the death penalty was, will be, and would still be wrong. Any distinction between “behaving monstrously” and “being monster-like” is too trivial for discussion. > [@magellan01](#): > > Perhaps you can see the management about all people believing as you do. What the hell, let’s make it a sandwich::rolleyes: Once again, not a matter of _belief_. But I would like a roast beef on whole wheat with cheddar and lots of mustard and mayonnaise. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/335 "2011-12-07T21:23:30Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Not very Christian of you. In fact, wasn’t your Deity executed by the state? Was that a good thing? I’ve seen that argument made; “Without capital punishment Christ’s death and Resurrection would not have occurred, therefore the death penalty is a good thing!” I want to say it was Jerry Falwell who said it, but I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/336 "2011-12-07T23:03:29Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m not “begging” jack. I’ll note that it was past 11 p.m. when your submitted your post, so I’ll presume that you didn’t keep your antecedents straight. Allow me to restate, and attempt to make it misunderstanding-proof: People who think the death penalty should be “on the table” are wrong, because the death penalty is always wrong. > > No, I don’t “think” the death penalty is wrong; the death penalty IS wrong, irrespective of what I think. Before I existed; after I no longer exist; even had I NEVER existed, the death penalty was, will be, and would still be wrong. Any distinction between “behaving monstrously” and “being monster-like” is too trivial for discussion. > Once again, not a matter of _belief_. But I would like a roast beef on whole wheat with cheddar and lots of mustard and mayonnaise. 🙂 Ooohhhh, you were just letting me know what you _thought_. You’re _opinion_. Gotcha. By the way, what do you think of onion soup? How 'bout Green Bay…think they’ll pull off an undefeated season? Please reply quickly. I can’t wait to see what your opinion is. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/337 "2011-12-08T02:43:15Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0PAJNntoRgA/maxresdefault.jpg "Strong") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA) Republicans believe that: children are not permitted to celebrate Christmas, praying in school is not allowed, there is a “liberal war on religion” endorsed by Barack Obama, and “faith made America great.” This is exactly what “losing touch with reality” refers to. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/338 "2011-12-08T03:58:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > If you’d stop to think about this for a second, you might understand that something people do under their own free will is different than something done to them by the state. > > You can understand that, right? I understand perfectly. > [@](#): > > Not very Christian of you. In fact, wasn’t your Deity executed by the state? Was that a good thing? Methods are not inherently evil. It is only evil depending on whom it is apllied and for what reasons. Again as I’ve said many times both Christ and Paul were willing to accept capital punishment if they were truly deserving of it. > [@](#): > > DADT is inherently homophobic. The only reason I’ve seen, other than homophobia, to support it is being concerned about the effect if will have on the morale of the services. > > But I’m pretty sure most of the people with those concerns also hate homosexuals. Hence some people may want to avoid conflicts in the Army due to bullying of homosexuals by homophobes. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/339 "2011-12-08T04:05:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I understand perfectly. Then you accept that your particular argument was flawed? > [@](#): > > Methods are not inherently evil. It is only evil depending on whom it is apllied and for what reasons. Again as I’ve said many times both Christ and Paul were willing to accept capital punishment if they were truly deserving of it. Was Christ truly deserving of it? If not, you’d admit that mistakes happen, right? You’re okay with innocent people dying at the hands of your government? If you’re not okay with it, why not change it so that it doesn’t happen? > [@](#): > > Hence some people may want to avoid conflicts in the Army due to bullying of homosexuals by homophobes. If you’re really interested in avoiding conflicts, maybe you should stay out of the Army. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/340 "2011-12-08T04:10:20Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA) > > Republicans believe that: children are not permitted to celebrate Christmas, praying in school is not allowed, there is a “liberal war on religion” endorsed by Barack Obama, and “faith made America great.” > > This is exactly what “losing touch with reality” refers to. Wow. My jaw almost hit the floor while I watched it. I can’t believe this is a campaign ad from someone who wants to be president of the United States. Am I the only one who feels this is exhibit ‘A’ in the pile of evidence of what’s wrong with the Republican party today? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=18)