# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/341 "2011-12-08T04:23:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PAJNntoRgA) > > Republicans believe that: children are not permitted to celebrate Christmas, praying in school is not allowed, there is a “liberal war on religion” endorsed by Barack Obama, and “faith made America great.” > > This is exactly what “losing touch with reality” refers to. Well the last point is true although the other ones are laughably false. [QUOTE] > [@Lobohan](#): > > Then you accept that your particular argument was flawed? Without going OT, I’ll have to say we have to disagree there. > [@](#): > > Was Christ truly deserving of it? If not, you’d admit that mistakes happen, right? You’re okay with innocent people dying at the hands of your government? If you’re not okay with it, why not change it so that it doesn’t happen? Certainly not Christ. And yes I agree there are errors in the death penalty, that is why I am at best skeptical of it-like in Troy Davis’ case. > [@](#): > > If you’re really interested in avoiding conflicts, maybe you should stay out of the Army. 😃 LOL, that is why as I’ve said I don’t agree with DADT. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/342 "2011-12-08T04:35:57Z")
America was founded by deists (an acceptable euphemism for atheists at the time) who wanted to overthrow the religious ideals of poverty and joylessness and replace them with the pursuit of freedom and property, two things opposed by faith, and the two things which made America great. Faith, Christian or otherwise, is not relevant to what made America what it is, despite the revisionist history put forth by the Republican anti-realists from the mid-70s to the present. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/343 "2011-12-08T05:14:17Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Hence some people may want to avoid conflicts in the Army due to bullying of homosexuals by homophobes. Yes, and back in the day, some people wanted to avoid conflicts in the Army due to the mistreatment of Blacks by Racists, so they banned blacks from the army… Was _that_ okay? > [@](#): > > Well the last point is true although the other ones are laughably false. The last point is _not_ true. Faith by no means made America great; our founders were mostly deists and part of what made us as a nation so successful was a separation from puritanical and other religious values. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/344 "2011-12-08T05:45:09Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > America was founded by deists (an acceptable euphemism for atheists at the time) who wanted to overthrow the religious ideals of poverty and joylessness and replace them with the pursuit of freedom and property, two things opposed by faith, and the two things which made America great. Faith, Christian or otherwise, is not relevant to what made America what it is, despite the revisionist history put forth by the Republican anti-realists from the mid-70s to the present. :rolleyes: Deists \*are not \*atheists. There were atheists at the time include Marquis de Sade and Baron d’Holbach. [QUOTE] > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes, and back in the day, some people wanted to avoid conflicts in the Army due to the mistreatment of Blacks by Racists, so they banned blacks from the army… Was _that_ okay? As I’ve said I do not support those arguments. > [@](#): > > The last point is _not_ true. Faith by no means made America great; our founders were mostly deists and part of what made us as a nation so successful was a separation from puritanical and other religious values. Nonsense. The Puritan colonies were the ones with the most advanced and participatory form of government in the US. Not to mention deism is still theism and this faith. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/345 "2011-12-08T05:55:27Z")
Deism is not faith in the general sense, but rather a rational understanding of the universe requiring no large leaps of logic. And please, feel free to cite your sources in regards to the puritans being a successful democracy. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/346 "2011-12-08T06:09:28Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > America was founded by deists (an acceptable euphemism for atheists at the time) who wanted to overthrow the religious ideals of poverty and joylessness and replace them with the pursuit of freedom and property, two things opposed by faith, and the two things which made America great. Faith, Christian or otherwise, is not relevant to what made America what it is, despite the revisionist history put forth by the Republican anti-realists from the mid-70s to the present. You couldn’t be more wrong. America was founded by deists and religionists of mostly the Christian stripe. Do you really not know this? And as has been pointed out to you already, desists are not the same as atheists. And perhaps you can share a cite showing that the founders wanted to overthrow any religious ideals. And please come back with more than Jefferson’s bible. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/347 "2011-12-08T06:27:34Z")
The very ideal of “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” is opposed to Christian teaching (that life is a transitory, sin-cursed phase, that you must follow church doctrine, and that you are not worthy of happiness). What do you think the Enlightenment was revolting against? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/348 "2011-12-08T07:04:49Z")
[quote=“Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi, post:344, topic:604320”] :rolleyes: Deists \*are not \*atheists. There were atheists at the time include Marquis de Sade and Baron d’Holbach. [QUOTE] Tom Paine in **The Age of Reason** specifically said he was not an atheist - but most of the book attacks the Christian Bible as a pile of nonsense. However, the reason he believed in a Creator - the ordered structure of the solar system - can now be explained by reason alone, so I rather suspect that if he was living today he would be an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/349 "2011-12-09T04:03:52Z")
[quote=“Voyager, post:348, topic:604320”] [quote=“Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi, post:344, topic:604320”] :rolleyes: Deists \*are not \*atheists. There were atheists at the time include Marquis de Sade and Baron d’Holbach. > [@](#): > > Tom Paine in **The Age of Reason** specifically said he was not an atheist - but most of the book attacks the Christian Bible as a pile of nonsense. However, the reason he believed in a Creator - the ordered structure of the solar system - can now be explained by reason alone, so I rather suspect that if he was living today he would be an atheist. Why? There are deists today. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/350 "2011-12-09T07:31:04Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > No, I don’t “think” the death penalty is wrong; the death penalty IS wrong, irrespective of what I think. Before I existed; after I no longer exist; even had I NEVER existed, the death penalty was, will be, and would still be wrong. This statement requires proof. I assume that you can provide it. Right? Slee ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/351 "2011-12-09T08:07:25Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why? There are deists today. Yes, but they may not be deists for the same reason Tom Paine was a deist. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/352 "2011-12-09T14:07:45Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > This statement requires proof. I assume that you can provide it. Right? > > Slee You don’t think killing people is evil? Especially innocent people? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/353 "2011-12-09T14:23:27Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You don’t think killing people is evil? Especially innocent people? Well, of course. That’s why it feels so good. :o ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/354 "2011-12-09T14:43:28Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The very ideal of “life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness” is opposed to Christian teaching (that life is a transitory, sin-cursed phase, that you must follow church doctrine, and that you are not worthy of happiness). What do you think the Enlightenment was revolting against? Huh? Objective, physical fact: Life is transitory. There’s nothing explicitly Christian about that. “Sin-cursed”: You have to be a Christian to think there’s such a thing as sin? Lots of people think the world is a dark and evil place. If you’ll read some newspapers and history books, you’ll discover that people have done some staggeringly evil things over the centuries, and even the best people sometimes behave monstrously. That seems like a pretty accurate description to me, and you don’t have to be a Christian or even a theist to see it that way. “You must follow Church doctrine”: If you believe Christian doctrine and want salvation and eternal life, yes. If you don’t, the Church has no claim on you. Perhaps you haven’t noticed that theocracy is pretty much out of fashion in the Western world these days. “Not worthy of happiness?” Where in the world did you get the idea that Christianity explicitly forbids happiness? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/355 "2011-12-09T15:19:41Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > “Sin-cursed”: You have to be a Christian to think there’s such a thing as sin? Yes, you do. Anyone can acknowledge evil, but “sin” is a Christian thing – not even Jews have quite the same concept of it as St. Augustine, and I doubt Muslims have either. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/356 "2011-12-09T16:53:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, you do. Anyone can acknowledge evil, but “sin” is a Christian thing – not even Jews have quite the same concept of it as St. Augustine, and I doubt Muslims have either. Meh. Variations on a theme, that’s all. If you want to talk about vicarious atonement of sin, or some other uniquely Christian doctrine about sin, that’s another thing altogether. My point still stands. The understanding that humans often commit evil deeds is pretty much universal. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/357 "2011-12-09T17:23:38Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Tom Paine in **The Age of Reason** specifically said he was not an atheist - but most of the book attacks the Christian Bible as a pile of nonsense. However, the reason he believed in a Creator - the ordered structure of the solar system - can now be explained by reason alone, so I rather suspect that if he was living today he would be an atheist. Oh, really. Please share. A Nobel Prize and the Lucasian Chair await. Also, Paine believed in an afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/358 "2011-12-09T17:26:13Z")
There is no Nobel Prize for History. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=17)