# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/21 "2011-11-28T16:26:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I’ve been familiar with David Frum for years. He was ALWAYS the kind of “conservative” who enjoyed posturing to liberals as the “reasonable” one, unlike all those other uncouth yahoos on the right. Frum has ALWAYS been the kind of guy who wrote articles with titles like “The Conservative Case for \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ (fill in your pet liberal cause).” > > Which means he NEVER inspired much trust among conservatives, even when he was ostensibly one of us. > > On social issues, Frum always leaned left. On economic issues, he’s gradually moved leftward (“um, you know, maybe high taxes and a massive welfare state aren’t so bad”). > > Indeed, the ONLY issue on which Frum was reliably conservative was foreign policy, and even then, that’s only if you equate “conservative” with “hawkish” (Pat Buchanan wouldn’t). > > Frum was ready to drum ANYBODY out of the Republican party who wasn’t a hawk on the Middle East. After that, he has a lot of nerve posing as the voice of the Big Tent. Oh, so I guess he’s over-reacting and conservatives aren’t electing batshit-insane people who want to enact destructive policies. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/22 "2011-11-28T16:38:07Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Is the point here that Bush Administration was the Republican shining light? If you’d bothered reading the article, you’d see he’s saying the exact opposite: I am haunted by the Bush experience, although it seems almost presumptuous for someone who played such a minor role to feel so much unease. The people who made the big decisions certainly seem to sleep well enough. Yet there is also the chance for something positive to come out of it all. True, some of my colleagues emerged from those years eager to revenge themselves and escalate political conflict: “They send one of ours to the hospital, we send two of theirs to the morgue.” I came out thinking, I want no more part of this cycle of revenge. For the past half-dozen years, I have been arguing that we conservatives need to follow a different course. IOW, he realized he made a mistake and is trying to make up for it. He also says that as bad as Bush was, the tea party-driven agenda today is even worse. Coming from a conservative, that’s a positive step for the sanity of politics in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/23 "2011-11-28T16:39:53Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > No conservative is surprised to read stuff like this from David Frum, who has been veering steadily leftward for years. > > That said, it’s delightful to watch the guy get pilloried by the far left! > > It couldn’t happen to a nicer guy! I mean, what did you think, Dave- that the lefties were suddenly going to embrace you as one of them? > > But hey, I know- try self-flagellation. Try sackcloth and ashes. Maybe THEN they’ll like you (and even if they don’t, we conservatives will enjoy watching you humiliate yourself further). You mean No True Conservative.😉 When Bush and Reagan are to the left of the tea party, Frum can hardly be accused of becoming a leftie, but it’s typical that your response to his criticism is to attack and demonize him. The Islamo-fascists in Iran admire your methodology. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/24 "2011-11-28T16:46:56Z")
I’d guess it was when the USSR fell. Deprived of the biggest clearly-defined enemy, the Republicans began seeing enemies everywhere, since doing so has proven to be an effective political strategy. Nowadays, it ain’t commies that Americans need protecting from, _it’s other Americans!_ ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/25 "2011-11-28T16:58:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d guess it was when the USSR fell. Deprived of the biggest clearly-defined enemy, the Republicans began seeing enemies everywhere, since doing so has proven to be an effective political strategy. Nowadays, it ain’t commies that Americans need protecting from, _it’s other Americans!_ The call is coming from _inside the country_! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/26 "2011-11-28T16:58:48Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Which means he NEVER inspired much trust among conservatives, even when he was ostensibly one of us. Short answer: “He’s just a RINO, nothing to see here, move along.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/27 "2011-11-28T17:54:14Z")
Is Frum worried the GOP can’t win with this kind of hard-right line, or is he afraid of what happens when a GOP of that form does win? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/28 "2011-11-28T18:17:37Z")
I keep hearing that the wacky far right religious maniacs control the GOP. So, how come a liberal counrty clubber named Romney is all set to win the nomination handily? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/29 "2011-11-28T18:20:14Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I keep hearing that the wacky far right religious maniacs control the GOP. > > So, how come a liberal counrty clubber named Romney is all set to win the nomination handily? Because the whackjobs tried to float people who reflect their ideas. But as it happens, they’re uniformly stupid and uninformed. Cite: Perry, Bachmann, Cain and Trump. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/30 "2011-11-28T18:20:51Z")
It amazes me when people who have worked in politics there whole lives suddenly realize what should be obvious to everyone. This reminds me of something from the blog Asymetrical Information: Jane’s Law about politics-The devotees of the party in power are smug and arrogant. The devotees of the party out of power are insane. Parts of the opposition party goes nuts every time a member of the opposition is elected. Reagan was hated as a doddering old rascist fool who longed to cause nuclear war. Bush 1 was hated as an out of touch oil tycoon who started a war for oil. When Clinton was president there were theories about drug smuggling into Arkansas airports and lists of Clinton associates who mysteriously died. Bush 2 was hated as an idiot who could barely walk and chew gum at the same time and an evil genius who lied us into a war to enrich his vice president. Now Obama is portrayed as someone who can’t talk without a prompter and only cares about his golf game and where Michelle goes on vacation next. This is the nature of democracy. Passion is what motivates people to become involved with politics, volunteer, donate, and vote. Jeremiads are what make people passionate, not soft soap. Thus we get the incendiary rhetoric that dominates today. However, if you look beyond the rhetoric and to the actual substance there is plenty going on with the GOP that anyone who care about policy should be proud of. Governors such as Christie, Walker, Jindal, Daniels, and McConnell are successfully championing innovative fiscal reforms. The house Republicans got behind Ryan’s plan which is a responsible plan for leading the government away from fiscal collapse. The GOP plan in the supercommitte had good ideas for eliminating deductions so the government can raise tax revenue without hurting the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/31 "2011-11-28T18:36:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The call is coming from _inside the country_! At three a.m., yet. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/32 "2011-11-28T18:40:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is Frum worried the GOP can’t win with this kind of hard-right line, or is he afraid of what happens when a GOP of that form does win? He wants the GOP to step back far enough to salvage its relevance. At this point, I’d rather see it crash and burn and wait for some other party to coalesce and offer a _sane_ alternative to the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/33 "2011-11-28T19:04:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > However, if you look beyond the rhetoric and to the actual substance there is plenty going on with the GOP that anyone who care about policy should be proud of. Governors such as Christie, Walker, Jindal, Daniels, and McConnell are successfully championing innovative fiscal reforms. The house Republicans got behind Ryan’s plan which is a responsible plan for leading the government away from fiscal collapse. The GOP plan in the supercommitte had good ideas for eliminating deductions so the government can raise tax revenue without hurting the economy. See posts #2, #4 and #5. Even they are more in touch with reality than you appear to be. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/34 "2011-11-28T19:09:23Z")
There is no one more fervent than a recent convert. Witness David Frum. Or, for the other side of the coin, David Mamet. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/35 "2011-11-28T19:10:13Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > He wants the GOP to step back far enough to salvage its relevance. At this point, I’d rather see it crash and burn and wait for some other party to coalesce and offer a _sane_ alternative to the Democrats. Better still, **nobody** emerges to the right of the Dems; rather, the Dems themselves move right to fill the vacuum and snap up the votes – and they need not move very far at all, to absorb the whole of the rational center-right – while at the same time a viable new party to the **left** of the Dems emerges, say, the Working Families Party, and that could be our new two-party system. A party system which gives the far-left a kind of a home where they’re at least listened to some (that is, the WFP would be a big enough tent to hold Commies and such), while at the same time leaving the far-right homeless and marginalized like the left has been for the past several decades. It’s perfect! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/36 "2011-11-28T19:13:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There is no one more fervent than a recent convert. Witness David Frum. Or, for the other side of the coin, David Mamet. 😕 Frum has not converted to or from anything recently, he has been a Republican as long as he’s been involved in American politics. This is one of those situations where your politics will appear to “change” over a decade or two if you only hold still, in your views, while your party shifts leftward or rigthward around you. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/37 "2011-11-28T19:15:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Is Frum worried the GOP can’t win with this kind of hard-right line, or is he afraid of what happens when a GOP of that form does win? It sounds like both. He’s very aware that if the Republicans don’t rein in the crazy soon, then the 2012 election is already lost. And he also seems very aware that if the crazy continues to gain prominence in the party, then 2016 and 2020 are as good as lost as well. But he also seems genuinely appalled at some of the people who have taken up the Republican banner and the causes they stand for. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/38 "2011-11-28T19:16:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 Frum has not converted to or from anything recently, he has been a Republican as long as he’s been involved in American politics. > > This is one of those situations where your politics will appear to “change” if you only hold still while your party moves. Context. It’s **Terr** , therefore he’s saying that Frum, because he’s actually advocating for a retreat from some of the more insane and heartless characteristics of today’s Republican Party, has converted to Communism. Or to the Democratic Party. Same thing, really, in **Terr** ’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/39 "2011-11-28T19:18:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See posts #2, #4 and #5. Even they are more in touch with reality than you appear to be. “They’re evil” does not demonstrate an especially impressive command of reality, as opposed to a discussion of the facts. The Republic Party is an organization with some pretty alarming issues - hell, they don’t have issues, they have a subscription - but “they’re evil” doesn’t show any sort of understanding of what they are or of reality in general. And calling David Frum a racist is just ignorant, so that’s quite in opposition to reality. I mean, Frum has already been likened to a Nazi. The thread was Godwinized within 14 posts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/40 "2011-11-28T19:27:51Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > “They’re evil” does not demonstrate an especially impressive command of reality, as opposed to a discussion of the facts. Neither does a representation of any of the Pub fiscal or budgetary ideas floated in the past couple of years as things to be taken seriously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=3)