# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/41 "2011-11-28T19:52:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Neither does a representation of any of the Pub fiscal or budgetary ideas floated in the past couple of years as things to be taken seriously. This is an object lesson in the bifurcated nature of politics, on one level it is a discussion about whether the growth level of entitlements should be and other such dry wonkishness. On another level it is a reenactment of the Lord of the Rings with the other party representing Sauron and thus no good thing can come from them and there can be no compromise only all out victory or defeat. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/42 "2011-11-28T19:56:35Z")
Thought better of it… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/43 "2011-11-28T19:58:57Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is an object lesson in the bifurcated nature of politics, on one level it is a discussion about whether the growth level of entitlements should be and other such dry wonkishness. On another level it is a reenactment of the Lord of the Rings with the other party representing Sauron and thus no good thing can come from them and there can be no compromise only all out victory or defeat. You did praise a passel of over-reaching, rigidly ideological governors and the utterly childish Ryan plan. Those aren’t brave statesmen doing their best, they’re ideologues trying to enact conservative line-item changes. Both sides have their problems, but to claim that the 2010 class of Republicans is anything but rabidly ideological and willing or eager to damage the country is to be ignoring the facts. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/44 "2011-11-28T19:59:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I keep hearing that the wacky far right religious maniacs control the GOP. > > So, how come a liberal counrty clubber named Romney is all set to win the nomination handily? That hasn’t happened, yet. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/45 "2011-11-28T19:59:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Neither does a representation of any of the Pub fiscal or budgetary ideas floated in the past couple of years as things to be taken seriously. And that has what to do with the OP? David Frum? Posts 2, 3 and 5? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/46 "2011-11-28T20:12:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And that has what to do with the OP? David Frum? Posts 2, 3 and 5? I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong, but I think he’s suggesting that “Republicans are evil” is closer to reality than current Republican economic ideas. A case (however shaky) can be made for _Republicans are evil_. But their economic ideas are in conflict with math. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/47 "2011-11-28T20:21:57Z")
The CBC program [ideas](http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2011/11/16/david-frum-conservatism-for-liberals/) profiled David Frum [a week ago](http://www.cbc.ca/video/news/audioplayer.html?clipid=2168074912) (54:49). If you want a quick and dirty spread of his general views I suggest you fast forward to 32:10-37:50 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/48 "2011-11-28T20:49:26Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is an object lesson in the bifurcated nature of politics, on one level it is a discussion about whether the growth level of entitlements should be and other such dry wonkishness. On another level it is a reenactment of the Lord of the Rings with the other party representing Sauron and thus no good thing can come from them and there can be no compromise only all out victory or defeat. I trust you mean Republicans when you refer to a side which refuses to compromise. The problem is not a discussion of entitlement. The problem is that the new mainstream Republican economic theory is total bullshit. Bill Keller today noted that they have a list of “economists” who support their ideas, and the list sounds very much like the list of “scientists” who support creationism that went around a few years ago. At best you have some people from right wing think tanks, the rest are professors at fifth rate universities and bloggers. Mainstream economists, even right wing ones, know that you don’t cut unemployment by cutting the hell out of the Federal Budget, and they know that the Fed isn’t the root of all evil. As for Frum, remember he got fired for speaking his mind. That is what I call political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/49 "2011-11-28T20:54:16Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I keep hearing that the wacky far right religious maniacs control the GOP. > > So, how come a liberal counrty clubber named Romney is all set to win the nomination handily? Handily? Usually when a leading opponent crashes and burns, you pick up votes. In this case the support of the nitwits just moves to the next insane candidate. Bachmann -\> Perry -\> Cain -\> Gingrich. (The last example shows they even bring them back from the dead to support them.) It is clear that the lunatic candidates are splitting the lunatic vote, but it is also clear that the lunatic vote represents a clear majority of Republicans these days. Really, Cain? Harold Stassen had a better platform, and I don’t mean when he was a real candidate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/50 "2011-11-28T22:39:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I keep hearing that the wacky far right religious maniacs control the GOP. > > So, how come a liberal counrty clubber named Romney is all set to win the nomination handily? He is? Newt has been polling pretty well lately against ol’ Mitt, and had a major NH newspaper endorse him last week. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/51 "2011-11-29T00:34:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > However, if you look beyond the rhetoric and to the actual substance there is plenty going on with the GOP that anyone who care about policy should be proud of. Governors such as Christie, Walker, Jindal, Daniels, and McConnell are successfully championing innovative fiscal reforms. The house Republicans got behind Ryan’s plan which is a responsible plan for leading the government away from fiscal collapse. The GOP plan in the supercommitte had good ideas for eliminating deductions so the government can raise tax revenue without hurting the economy. Ryan is all hype, and will make things worse. Daniels sold off highways to private investors. Walker is an anti-labor hardliner. I’m not familiar with the others. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Better still, **nobody** emerges to the right of the Dems; rather, the Dems themselves move right to fill the vacuum and snap up the votes – and they need not move very far at all, to absorb the whole of the rational center-right – while at the same time a viable new party to the **left** of the Dems emerges, say, the Working Families Party, and that could be our new two-party system. A party system which gives the far-left a kind of a home where they’re at least listened to some (that is, the WFP would be a big enough tent to hold Commies and such), while at the same time leaving the far-right homeless and marginalized like the left has been for the past several decades. It’s perfect! 😃 I would love that. But I’m not sure it can get past the endemic labeling. I think progressives might do better to adopt the conservative label & then advocate for the same progressive ideas they had. > [@astorian](#): > > I keep hearing that the wacky far right religious maniacs control the GOP. > > So, how come a liberal counrty clubber named Romney is all set to win the nomination handily? Romney is an extreme _economic conservative,_ and possibly further right on economic and foreign policy issues than any of the religious value candidates and their base. There’s more than one kind of conservative. > [@puddleglum](#): > > This is an object lesson in the bifurcated nature of politics, on one level it is a discussion about whether the growth level of entitlements should be and other such dry wonkishness. On another level it is a reenactment of the Lord of the Rings with the other party representing Sauron and thus no good thing can come from them and there can be no compromise only all out victory or defeat. And what if one party is itself an extremist organization? Can a Palestinian justifiably denounce Hamas? Or a Brit the BNP? Surely there is a point at which a party is actually obnoxious enough to be characterized as obnoxious? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/52 "2011-11-29T00:48:52Z")
I have to admit I read that Frum article with a bit of partisan glee, like vengeance standing triumphantly over the body of his enemy’s suicide. “Finally”, I say to myself, “somebody in the Republican party _gets it_.” Whether it was sincere or not, it _sounds_ sincere, is the problem, and if any Republicans with power will listen and act upon the warnings. Of course, given the intransigence of the GOP, I don’t expect much. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/53 "2011-11-29T01:45:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Basically, relatively sane but evil Republicans decades ago made a political deal with the devil with the most insane and bigoted members of the Right, who have now largely taken over. And only now are some of them feeling buyer’s remorse. Well, if they’d had some principles in the first place then the present situation wouldn’t have arisen. Why are they “evil”? :rolleyes: > [@YogSosoth](#): > > The problem is that the modern GOP didn’t reach where its at now in a vacuum. For years, people like Frum slowly eroded public confidence in our elected officials and government, demonized unions, stripped the poor of its protections, and deregulated industry. Breaking the stranglehold of the unions and getting rid of excessive welfare and regulations is not a bad thing. [quote=“newcomer, post:17, topic:604320”] And all this venom from the guy who came up with “axis of evil” phrase. That’s some mighty mind righ there. /QUOTE] So Saddam, the Ayatollah, and Kim Jong-Il aren’t evil people? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/54 "2011-11-29T01:59:11Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why are they “evil”? :rolleyes: Because greed, bigotry and malice have been core Republican values for decades. All that’s changed recently is that they’ve added “insane” to the list of reasons to condemn them. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Breaking the stranglehold of the unions and getting rid of excessive welfare and regulations is not a bad thing. Unions are near dead - and breaking them is a major reason why incomes have stagnated for decades. We don’t have “excessive welfare”, we have people reduced to homelessness. And removing regulations has ruined the economy and damaged the quality of just about everything. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/55 "2011-11-29T03:13:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Breaking the stranglehold of the unions and getting rid of excessive welfare and regulations is not a bad thing. Really? Isn’t it? _Words mean things,_ as Rusty Limbaugh used to say. Unions are a way of democratizing business decisions. You want less power to the people? Welfare means well-being. We had excessive well-being, you say? Are we better off with less now? Regulations are laws. Who decided which laws were excessive? I’ve seen Republicans fall over themselves to outlaw burning a US flag (before you were born). Doesn’t that seem excessive? But some environmental law, like air quality, that’s excessive? Who decided again? ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/56 "2011-11-29T03:27:10Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What we’re looking at is one of the past cheerleaders for Republican intransigence and aggressive religiosity and utterly insane rhetoric realizing that the yokels actually BELIEVE all of the bullshit that his party spread around in order to attract said yokels, and now the political operators of the party are more or less REQUIRED to treat said bullshit as an operating paradigm instead of a campaign slogan. > > He’s not appalled that all of this is associated with his party. He’s appalled that his party was forced into actually _adopting_ all of this by the base that he and his ilk created. Right. Promoting the rhetoric was great when it helped win votes, but when the rhetoric\* actually starts being believed (almost religiously) by the voters and the GOP leader, that leads to an uh-oh moment. It’s nice that there are conservatives that can recognize the crazy, but he’s helped foster it. He had a hand in creating the monster. \*Government can’t accomplish anything (outside of the military), capitalism can solve all problems, intellectualism sucks, climate change is a myth, might makes right etc. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/57 "2011-11-29T05:06:40Z")
Of course Frum hit the nail on the head on pretty much everything in that article, but why do I get the feeling he’s angling for something? Very few who remain proud to be members of the Republican party are going to heed a word Frum wrote, and he knows this, so who was the article written for? Democrats, who’ve been saying the exact same things? Former moderate Republicans, who feel they no longer have a political home? Independents, who aren’t sure whether to be more concerned about Democratic spinelessness or Republican malevolence? I’m just not clear what Frum hopes to achieve with his missive? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/58 "2011-11-29T06:06:58Z")
Frum doesn’t seem to understand what has happened to him and why. He was a propagandist for Republicans and wrote copy. When he stopped writing propaganda copy and started writing down his own thoughts, he got fired. He thought he was paid for his thoughts. He wasn’t. He was paid for agreeing in well written prose. Of course he got fired from all his gigs: he stopped doing his job to the point that he was undermining the work of his coworkers who were doing their jobs: writing right-wing propaganda. And he is still doing it. So he disagrees with the direction of his former fellow travelers. But what is he going to do about it? Pat Buchanan at least made a fool of his racist self running for office from a similar position and background. Will Frum start a new wing of the party? A new party? Will he join the Democratic Party or a third party? Will he vote for more moderate candidates? Will he join an OWS protest, or OWS counter-protest? Personally, I think that he is going to continue to whine about it. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/59 "2011-11-29T06:38:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why are they “evil”? Because, in the face of the biggest world economic disaster in the last seventy years, the Republican Party not only has no serious answer to the meltdown, they also don’t even seem to care about it. More often than not, it seems like this is a party for which THE ONLY issue is the subjugation of homosexuals. A single-issue party devoted to oppressing a minority group is an evil thing, without meaningful precedent in the post-Civil War American political mainstream. Even in the worst days of George Wallace, the national Democratic Party was not single-mindedly devoted to the notion that the subjugation of blacks could and should continue forever. The Nazi comparison is more than apt–the range of problems which Republicans blame on this minority group, the obvious view of them as subhuman, and the fact that Republican debate audiences literally cheer the concept of death, brings to mind nothing more than Nazi attitudes towards Jews and accompanying nihilistic death-worship. If this is not evil, what is? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/60 "2011-11-29T06:43:10Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why are they “evil”? :rolleyes: Maybe because they cheer people being executed? Maybe because they boo a brave member of our military who happens to be gay? Maybe because they are fine with people not as well off as they are dying in the streets? Maybe because when Rick Perry said, very reasonably, that the children of illegal immigrants, who didn’t have any say in being here, should be able to get an education, they had a fit. > [@](#): > > Breaking the stranglehold of the unions and getting rid of excessive welfare and regulations is not a bad thing. Those horrible regulations have made the air and water a lot cleaner for you than they were when I was a kid. The destruction of unions by the right is a big reason why wages have stagnated. I’m going to laugh like hell when you get out of college and find there is nothing for you thanks to the stupid policies you support today. > [@](#): > > So Saddam, the Ayatollah, and Kim Jong-Il aren’t evil people? :rolleyes: Bush had his fun and North Korea has its nukes. Sometimes it is better to not call someone evil (even if they are) if you want to negotiate. Calling someone a poopyhead is more appropriate for the playground than the White House. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=4)