# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/81 "2011-11-29T18:02:54Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why are they “evil”? Most likely it’s an interaction between constitutional and environmental factors. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/82 "2011-11-29T18:04:21Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > But a piece of the equation that Shodan is also ignoring, is that this thread includes some disaffected former Republicans (such as myself), who find a great deal of resonance with Frum’s article I’m not ignoring anything. Republican bashing, including the borderline-insane variety, **always** gets traction on the SDMB. This is not news to anyone I know of. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/83 "2011-11-29T18:07:33Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I am astonished, simply astonished, that **Shodan** has chosen to ignore facts and to comment on an article without reading any of it. > > But a piece of the equation that Shodan is also ignoring, is that this thread includes some disaffected former Republicans (such as myself), who find a great deal of resonance with Frum’s article. I left the GOP fold a long time ago, but certainly it seems to me that the GOP of today is a horror show of radicalism and intolerance, especially compared to the GOP I was once a registered member of. I saw the writing on the wall of the GOP’s direction into madness back in the H.W. Bush administration, when he lost support among a certain class of “conservatives” for being “too liberal.” (The Republicans’ subsequent drive to destroy Clinton at any cost was another warning sign.) But the truth is, compared to where the GOP was heading and has ended up, H.W. Bush _was_ too liberal. That by itself is enough to tell you that the GOP has lost its way. Although I admit I never thought it would lose its way as sensationally badly as it has. Hell, Reagan would be too liberal now if they actually paid attention to what he did. I worked for the Conservative Party in New York in high school. I voted for Nixon in 1972. I voted for Republicans right up to 2000 when my spider sense went off about Bush the younger. It told me he was a nitwit, and I was right. Iraq War 1 was a masterpiece of military planning, discipline, and diplomacy, and Bush the elder, one of the best qualified people to ever be elected, was right on top of it. As for Mr. Shodan, I’ll be charitable and say that deep down he understands the intellectual bankruptcy of the current mainstream Republican position, which is why he refused to defend it. We all know that when a politician is caught with his hand in the cookie jar, his reaction is that all coverage of it is politically motivated. I’m not saying the Republican field is dishonest (mostly) - the top candidates, except Romney, are honestly stupid. But saying that it is not necessary to respond to a point because it was in the Times (and any Republican in the Times must be a sellout, I assume) is very similar to this kind of response. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/84 "2011-11-29T18:09:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not ignoring anything. Republican bashing, including the borderline-insane variety, **always** gets traction on the SDMB. This is not news to anyone I know of. > > Regards, > Shodan Especially Republican bashing by Republicans, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/85 "2011-11-29T18:16:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not ignoring anything. Republican bashing, including the borderline-insane variety, **always** gets traction on the SDMB. This is not news to anyone I know of. > > Regards, > Shodan There, there, you poor, poor dear. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/86 "2011-11-29T18:27:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not ignoring anything. Republican bashing, including the borderline-insane variety, **always** gets traction on the SDMB. This is not news to anyone I know of. > > Regards, > Shodan Since you didn’t read the article, you literally don’t know what you’re talking about. Was there just a glitch in the Matrix? I got this deja vu feeling… ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/87 "2011-11-29T18:38:17Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > If you’d bothered reading the article, you’d see he’s saying the exact opposite: > > I am haunted by the Bush experience, although it seems almost presumptuous for someone who played such a minor role to feel so much unease. The people who made the big decisions certainly seem to sleep well enough. Yet there is also the chance for something positive to come out of it all. True, some of my colleagues emerged from those years eager to revenge themselves and escalate political conflict: “They send one of ours to the hospital, we send two of theirs to the morgue.” I came out thinking, I want no more part of this cycle of revenge. For the past half-dozen years, I have been arguing that we conservatives need to follow a different course. > > IOW, he realized he made a mistake and is trying to make up for it. He also says that as bad as Bush was, the tea party-driven agenda today is even worse. Coming from a conservative, that’s a positive step for the sanity of politics in the U.S. So says the guy who was one of the loudest MoFo calling for a war on Iraq. Under normal conditions he should be removed from public discourse and probably be checked for inciting to war and deceiving the public. How anyone – knowing who this guys is and what he has done – take him seriously anymore on any topic? Ah, yes, in US you can. He is apparently “voice of reason” now. Geez :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/88 "2011-11-29T18:40:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Especially Republican bashing by Republicans, it seems. No more than any other kind - you folks are always up to be reassured. > [@](#): > > As for Mr. Shodan, I’ll be charitable and say that deep down he understands the intellectual bankruptcy of the current mainstream Republican position, which is why he refused to defend it. What am I supposed to defend - that the GOP is not a death cult rejoicing in the death of the poor? That kind of shit doesn’t need defending against - it needs mocking and derision. A thread full of name-calling against the GOP, interspersed with complaints about how intellectually bankrupt they are. Gotta love it. As the elections approach, this will go up exponentially. Which is fine with me - I can use the chuckles. It’s like the threads we got about how Bush was going to cancel the elections, and the ones we get every few months about how we are gonna invade Iran, or the national conspiracy to put OWS down, or Ohio vote fraud in 2004, or etc., etc. But it’s that nasty ol’ GOP with its alternate history and facts. Uh- **huh**. 😉 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/89 "2011-11-29T18:45:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Of course this is a thread where people complain about the GOP’s alternate history . . . But Frum is not one of them, and you can’t get around that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/90 "2011-11-29T18:46:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not ignoring anything. Republican bashing, including the borderline-insane variety . . . :rolleyes: First time I’ve **ever** seen any characterization that interesting applied to David Frum. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/91 "2011-11-29T19:30:06Z")
**Shodan** , you keep complaining that political discussions are so one-sided around here, but what do you actually bring to the table? Let’s take a look at your activity in this thread: _Post #65_: Announce you didn’t read the article. Cast aspersions on the author’s sincerity. _Post #68_: Attack the New York Times (for some reason). Announce that your main purpose in this thread is to snicker condescendingly at people. _Post #71_: When asked your opinion of the exerpts of the article, reiterate your dismissal the New York Times. _Post #75_: Whine about how prone to Republican bashing the SDMB is. Gloat as though you’d made a point about something. _Post #77_: Point to a pair of articles published by New York Magazine as proof that the New York Times is biased. Whine that the article about the Democratic Party didn’t prompt anyone to start a thread. Did not start a thread about said article. _Post #82_: Whine more that Republican bashing is common on the SDMB. _Post #88_: Refuse to defend the GOP. Announce that mockery and derision are appropriate tactics. Scold other people in the thread for resorting to mockery and derision. Announce that the constant Republican bashing (which you had bemoaned earlier in the thread) is in fact a source of amusement for you. Have you ever considered, say, trying to contribute to this thread? It’s easy to see how Republican-bashing threads are so one-sided when nobody’s willing to stick up for them. I suppose it is easier to whine about the state of affairs, but it doesn’t actually do anything to bring balance to the discussion, does it? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/92 "2011-11-29T19:41:48Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Have you ever considered, say, trying to contribute to this thread? For instance, what really **is** right or wrong with the GOP today? You must have some actual opinions on **that.** ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/93 "2011-11-29T19:58:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What am I supposed to defend - that the GOP is not a death cult rejoicing in the death of the poor? That kind of shit doesn’t need defending against - it needs mocking and derision. Well, you could try actually _reading_ the article in question, and perhaps pointing out where certain points that Mr. Frum makes are erroneous. Oh, no, sorry, strike that. That’s just crazy talk. Shodan actually _reading_ an article that makes cogent criticism of the beloved party. My bad for even suggesting such a silly idea. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/94 "2011-11-29T20:06:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I was just discussing this with some friends. Frum is a decent person (at least he’s the most reasonable Republican I’ve seen as a talking head) and it takes a lot of courage to point out the craziness in his party now. When Pat Robertson thinks the republicans might have veered too far right for general consumption then I don’t know how much you can take away from the fact that David frum also thinks the Republicans have gone too far. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/95 "2011-11-29T20:08:39Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or, in other words, the New York Times is going into another spasm of fapping itself over “aren’t those Republicans just awful”. Gosh, that’s never happened before. :eek: You. Did. Not. Read. The. Article. Shodan, I’m _really_ not bothered if someone tried to oppose the points presented in the article. I found a lot of the posters in the first half of the thread rather over-the-top. I do not believe that republicans in the post-Reagan era are necessarily nuts or evil, and I am quick to denounce posts that point to them as such without much backing. This, though? This was pretty strong backing, bringing up a lot of very valid points about the Republican party. No, I’m not bothered by the fact that you oppose the article. I’m bothered by the _way_ you tried to oppose it. You don’t even pretend to have read it, you just write it off as a diatribe from the NYT, a typical anti-republican hate paper. Even if you were _right_, this would bug me. It shows intellectual laziness, a complete and utter lack of respect for those you are debating with, and a way of thinking _extremely_ tainted by confirmation bias. THIS is why this pissed me off so much. > [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not ignoring anything. Republican bashing, including the borderline-insane variety, **always** gets traction on the SDMB. This is not news to anyone I know of. Well, we have a former republican insider, and current _conservative columnist_, coming out and saying that the Republican party is not doing what it should be doing. And again: _YOU DIDN’T FUCKING READ IT_. See Shodan, here’s a hint: > [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > **Shodan** , you keep complaining that political discussions are so one-sided around here, but what do you actually bring to the table? Let’s take a look at your activity in this thread: > > _Post #65_: Announce you didn’t read the article. Cast aspersions on the author’s sincerity. > > _Post #68_: Attack the New York Times (for some reason). Announce that your main purpose in this thread is to snicker condescendingly at people. > > _Post #71_: When asked your opinion of the exerpts of the article, reiterate your dismissal the New York Times. > > _Post #75_: Whine about how prone to Republican bashing the SDMB is. Gloat as though you’d made a point about something. > > _Post #77_: Point to a pair of articles published by New York Magazine as proof that the New York Times is biased. Whine that the article about the Democratic Party didn’t prompt anyone to start a thread. Did not start a thread about said article. > > _Post #82_: Whine more that Republican bashing is common on the SDMB. > > _Post #88_: Refuse to defend the GOP. Announce that mockery and derision are appropriate tactics. Scold other people in the thread for resorting to mockery and derision. Announce that the constant Republican bashing (which you had bemoaned earlier in the thread) is in fact a source of amusement for you. > Have you ever considered, say, trying to contribute to this thread? It’s easy to see how Republican-bashing threads are so one-sided when nobody’s willing to stick up for them. I suppose it is easier to whine about the state of affairs, but it doesn’t actually do anything to bring balance to the discussion, does it? When someone can make a post like this about your posting habits, with this degree of detail and derision, then one of two things is happening: 1. You are an extremely poor debater with bad habits that you should stop; for example, posting in a thread that you have no interest in about an article that you refuse to read only to deride those who took the time to see what the topic was actually about! 2. You’re incredibly bad at Mafia. Seeing as this is great debates, I’m leaning towards the former. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/96 "2011-11-29T20:11:13Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > When Pat Robertson thinks the republicans might have veered too far right for general consumption then I don’t know how much you can take away from the fact that David frum also thinks the Republicans have gone too far. IIRC, Pat was objecting not to the platform, but rather simply stating that it’s correct, but no longer palatable for the general public. Frum is actually criticizing the platform itself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/97 "2011-11-29T20:12:46Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No, I’m not bothered by the fact that you oppose the article. I’m bothered by the _way_ you tried to oppose it. You don’t even pretend to have read it, you just write it off as a diatribe from the NYT, a typical anti-republican hate paper. Even if you were _right_, this would bug me. It shows intellectual laziness, a complete and utter lack of respect for those you are debating with, and a way of thinking _extremely_ tainted by confirmation bias. THIS is why this pissed me off so much. Well, I suppose unread dismissal **would** be the proper response to an article posted from, say, WorldNetDaily or American Thinker. But never to one from the NYT or its magazines, nor to Frum wherever published. I think we all understand how much the name of the messenger does and does not properly count for. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/98 "2011-11-29T20:14:35Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > Have you ever considered, say, trying to contribute to this thread? That would be like going up to the wino shitting on the park bench and offering to wipe his behind. It’s not that kind of thread. Like I said, this is a Two Minute Hate, where people rant about how much Republicans hate Mexicans and that kind of thing. Like I also said, you don’t argue with that - you point at it and laugh. It’s like **Der Trihs** and his foolishness. You can’t argue with that kind of thing, and it isn’t amusing to try. If there were any chance of a serious discussion, sure. In this thread, there isn’t - it’s just liberals patting each other on the back on how enlightened and wise and wonderful they are, and how evil and wrong and stupid and icky anyone who disagrees with them is. Part 982,386. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Quote=Shodan] > > Of course this is a thread where people complain about the GOP’s alternate history . . . But Frum is not one of them, and you can’t get around that. [/quote] Actually, yes, he is one of those people. That’s why he wrote the article - to complain about the GOP’s alternate history. Apparently you didn’t read it either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/99 "2011-11-29T20:17:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, yes, he is one of those people. That’s why he wrote the article - to complain about the GOP’s alternate history. How so? > [@](#): > > America desperately needs a responsible and compassionate alternative to the Obama administration’s path of bigger government at higher cost. And yet: This past summer, the GOP nearly forced America to the verge of default just to score a point in a budget debate. In the throes of the worst economic crisis since the Depression, Republican politicians demand massive budget cuts and shrug off the concerns of the unemployed. In the face of evidence of dwindling upward mobility and long-stagnating middle-class wages, my party’s economic ideas sometimes seem to have shrunk to just one: more tax cuts for the very highest earners. When I entered Republican politics, during an earlier period of malaise, in the late seventies and early eighties, the movement got most of the big questions—crime, inflation, the Cold War—right. This time, the party is getting the big questions disastrously wrong. > > It was not so long ago that Texas governor Bush denounced attempts to cut the earned-income tax credit as “balancing the budget on the backs of the poor.” By 2011, Republican commentators were noisily complaining that the poorer half of society are “lucky duckies” because the EITC offsets their federal tax obligations—or because the recession had left them with such meager incomes that they had no tax to pay in the first place. In 2000, candidate Bush routinely invoked “churches, synagogues, and mosques.” By 2010, prominent Republicans were denouncing the construction of a mosque in lower Manhattan as an outrageous insult. In 2003, President Bush and a Republican majority in Congress enacted a new prescription-drug program in Medicare. By 2011, all but four Republicans in the House and five in the Senate were voting to withdraw the Medicare guarantee from everybody under age 55. Today, the Fed’s pushing down interest rates in hopes of igniting economic growth is close to treason, according to Governor Rick Perry, coyly seconded by TheWall Street Journal. In 2000, the same policy qualified Alan Greenspan as the “greatest central banker in the history of the world,” according to Perry’s mentor, Senator Phil Gramm. Today, health reform that combines regulation of private insurance, individual mandates, and subsidies for those who need them is considered unconstitutional and an open invitation to “death panels.” A dozen years ago, a very similar reform was the Senate Republican alternative to Hillarycare. Today, stimulative fiscal policy that includes tax cuts for almost every American is “socialism.” In 2001, stimulative fiscal policy that included tax cuts for rather fewer Americans was an economic-recovery program. All those things happened in the GOP’s **real** history, on the Earth with the **blue** sky. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/100 "2011-11-29T20:25:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How so? The fact that he says things like this - > [@](#): > > conservatives have built a whole alternative knowledge system, with its own facts, its own history, its own laws of economics. sort of tipped me off that he was complaining about it. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=6)