# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/101 "2011-11-29T20:26:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Basically, relatively sane but evil Republicans decades ago made a political deal with the devil with the most insane and bigoted members of the Right, who have now largely taken over. And only now are some of them feeling buyer’s remorse. Well, if they’d had some principles in the first place then the present situation wouldn’t have arisen. The unholy alliance goes both ways. You once had a bunch of religious folks who were upset about abortion but didn’t necessarily line up behind the Republican party on tax cuts, the environment, welfare, gun rights, and all this other stuff. The problem is that this religious segment is NEVER going to get what they want. They will get all sorts of test votes but it will never become law and if it does, it will never survive SCOTUS and if it does the Republican party would never survive the next election. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/102 "2011-11-29T20:28:06Z")
It’s one thing to pander to the uber-religious and crazy demographic to bolster your party’s sway. It’s another thing to actually believe the BS you’re spewing. But pretending to be surprised when your house of cards paralyzes a system already so burdened by bureaucracy and glacial partisanship by a party comprised almost entirely of uncompromising ideals by definition, in which you were a part of building, is just sad. That said, the point remains. But I have little hope the GOP will take the high ground here. It’s going to get much darker before we see some light again, I fear. The bed has already been made. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/103 "2011-11-29T20:29:23Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > David Frum makes that exact point, too: > > “In funding the tea-party movement, they [Republican billionaires] are actually acting against their own longer-term interests, for it is the richest who have the most interest in political stability, which depends upon broad societal agreement that the existing distribution of rewards is fair and reasonable. If the social order comes to seem unjust to large numbers of people, what happens next will make Occupy Wall Street look like a street fair.” It already looks like a bit of a street fair (at least when they don’t get violent) and frankly I think a lot of rich folks think they can either escape to Monaco with their money or they can pay half the poor to kill the other half. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/104 "2011-11-29T20:29:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The fact that he says things like this - > sort of tipped me off that he was complaining about it. Not in the sense of **buying into** that or any other “alternate history,” which is what you seemed to imply; and **of course** what he is actually describing is fair grounds for complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/105 "2011-11-29T20:30:50Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Kind of like the German generals who turned against Hitler. After they started losing the war… What makes you think the conservatives are losing the war? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/106 "2011-11-29T20:31:00Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It already looks like a bit of a street fair (at least when they don’t get violent) and frankly I think a lot of rich folks think they can either escape to Monaco with their money or they can pay half the poor to kill the other half. Yes, both of those work. Usually. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/107 "2011-11-29T20:42:06Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why are they “evil”? :rolleyes: > Breaking the stranglehold of the unions and getting rid of excessive welfare and regulations is not a bad thing. Well to be fair breaking the stanglehold of ANYTHING is probably nto a bad thing but you haven’t made the argument that unions have any sort of stranglehold, you’re just saying they do. Same for getting rid of excessive ANYTHING but you haven’t made the case that welfare or regulations are excessive today, you are just saying they are. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/108 "2011-11-29T20:59:32Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > What they’re doing is outrageous and destructive and can’t continue. At some point, the fire they started burns down their own house. Problem is, we live right next door to them. In a double. With no firewall in between. I wish we could have some sort of fire inspector come over and force them to either stop throwing gasoline on the fire or move out. Or maybe, since their are never any adults present over there, child protective services should pay a visit and take them away to live with some nice, old-school Republican, foster parents (for their own protection. And ours). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/109 "2011-11-29T21:04:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No more than any other kind - you folks are always up to be reassured. > What am I supposed to defend - that the GOP is not a death cult rejoicing in the death of the poor? That kind of shit doesn’t need defending against - it needs mocking and derision. > > A thread full of name-calling against the GOP, interspersed with complaints about how intellectually bankrupt they are. Gotta love it. > Regards, > Shodan Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that most of the candidates accept neither evolution or global warming. Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that their economic policy is the moral equivalent of creationism. Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that the economics adviser of a major candidate is a low level ML employee. He might be a great financial adviser, but making economic policy, doubtful. I might remind you that the Bush economic policy, which is highly rational compared to these clowns, did pull us into the deepest slump for 80 years. Your continued inability to defend this is noted. I will admit that the moral and intellectual level of the candidates appears to be far above their audience. Which is not saying much. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/110 "2011-11-29T21:12:29Z")
The moral bankruptcy is worse than the intellectual. I am fairly economically conservative myself. I certainly think taxes and spending should both be lower than they are or than Obama or OWS wish them to be. But to sign on to the Republican agenda of indiscriminate murder, subjugation of women, discrimination against gays, and willfull denial of objective reality (from the big, like evolution, to the petty, like the fact that David Frum’s article was not published in the New York Times) in order to support my economic ideals would be a deal with the devil. Nobody can support the Republicans and claim to be a good person, regardless of who is right about tax rates. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/111 "2011-11-29T21:15:38Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Problem is, we live right next door to them. In a double. With no firewall in between. Many of their houses have burned down already. But the rich guy on the hill tells them that they will get a better one someday, so just stay camped out on the street, and give them any excess money so the rich guy can get right on setting up a construction company. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/112 "2011-11-29T21:21:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that most of the candidates accept neither evolution or global warming. Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that their economic policy is the moral equivalent of creationism. Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that the economics adviser of a major candidate is a low level ML employee. He might be a great financial adviser, but making economic policy, doubtful. I might remind you that the Bush economic policy, which is highly rational compared to these clowns, did pull us into the deepest slump for 80 years. > Your continued inability to defend this is noted. > I will admit that the moral and intellectual level of the candidates appears to be far above their audience. Which is not saying much. Which is the big problem. The GOP can’t turn to the rational thinkers anymore, so they depend more and more on the crazy or unscrupulous to gain any ground; ground which is already comprised of very thin ice. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/113 "2011-11-29T21:23:02Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > . . . would be a deal with the devil. There is no place in politics for an unmortgaged soul. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/114 "2011-11-29T21:51:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There is no place in politics for an unmortgaged soul. Nor in real estate! ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/115 "2011-11-29T21:53:10Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Which is the big problem. The GOP can’t turn to the rational thinkers anymore, so they depend more and more on the crazy or unscrupulous to gain any ground; ground which is already comprised of very thin ice. The smug is getting really thick in this thread… What’s hilarious is that you (plural) manage to combine the belief that GOP is more and more marginalized by its appeal to “crazy and unscrupulous” in the face of the fact that the country is split 50/50 Rep/Dem. Is half the population in the US “crazy and unscrupulous”? No, let me guess - you think that only 20% is “crazy and unscrupulous” (all on Republican side of course) and the other 30% are just stupid so they get taken in by the Republican lies. Of course, that ignores the studies that show that Republicans are, on the average, [better](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Fig_57_-_men_4-yr_college_degrees.JPG) [educated](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Fig_58_women_with_4-yr_college_degs.JPG)than Democrats - but maybe that’s because they are all “crazy and unscrupulous”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/116 "2011-11-29T22:20:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Intellectually bankrupt in the sense that most of the candidates accept neither evolution or global warming. Well, the two front runners currently are Gingrich and Romney. Gingrich seems to be a theistic evolutionist ([cite](http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/newt-gingrich-probably-not-a-creationist/)). And of course > [@Mitt Romney](#): > > I believe that God designed the universe and created the universe, and I believe evolution is most likely the process he used to create the human body. Huntsman is a candidate, and he isn’t a creationist. Palin is not a candidate. Cain is a candidate, at least at the moment - could you post a statement where he says he is a creationist, or is that something you just made up? > [@](#): > > Your continued inability to defend this is noted. Like I said, I don’t have to defend this - all that is necessary is to correct what you said to be accurate. That is, none of the GOP candidates with double digit poll numbers are creationists. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/117 "2011-11-29T22:22:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It already looks like a bit of a street fair (at least when they don’t get violent) and frankly I think a lot of rich folks think they can either escape to Monaco with their money or they can pay half the poor to kill the other half. Would the wealthy be content to sit back and let that happen? Wouldn’t be much of a country if it got to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/118 "2011-11-29T22:26:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The smug is getting really thick in this thread… Hello **Terr**! Have you at least read David Frum’s article? If so, what critique do you have of his points? If not, please go and join friend **Shodan** in the “pouting corner”. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/119 "2011-11-29T22:54:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The smug is getting really thick in this thread… > > What’s hilarious is that you (plural) manage to combine the belief that GOP is more and more marginalized by its appeal to “crazy and unscrupulous” in the face of the fact that the country is split 50/50 Rep/Dem. Is half the population in the US “crazy and unscrupulous”? No, let me guess - you think that only 20% is “crazy and unscrupulous” (all on Republican side of course) and the other 30% are just stupid so they get taken in by the Republican lies. Of course, that ignores the studies that show that Republicans are, on the average, [better](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Fig_57_-_men_4-yr_college_degrees.JPG) [educated](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Fig_58_women_with_4-yr_college_degs.JPG)than Democrats - but maybe that’s because they are all “crazy and unscrupulous”. Well, anyone with two or more brain cells to rub together would be ale to see issues that align on either party are not black and white, but a gradient. Only extremists see the world in such black and white hues as 50/50. So, the more a party panders to the extreme, the more unbalanced and unsustainable their platform will become, until they find themselves surrounded by fools; fools invited to a party they they themselves have thrown. And this drags down those in the GOP who might be, say, 65% gray, as opposed to the \>98% gray. At what point will they convince themselves that they should jump ship, until it sinks the whole damn fleet? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/120 "2011-11-29T23:21:13Z")
Also, pointing the argument here toward whether or not there’s any correlation to education and rational thinking and what impact it may or may not have in politics is a straw man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=7)