# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/121 "2011-11-29T23:33:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What’s hilarious is that you (plural) manage to combine the belief that GOP is more and more marginalized by its appeal to “crazy and unscrupulous” in the face of the fact that the country is split 50/50 Rep/Dem. Since when? Plenty of people aren’t either. > [@Terr](#): > > Is half the population in the US “crazy and unscrupulous”? No, let me guess - you think that only 20% is “crazy and unscrupulous” (all on Republican side of course) and the other 30% are just stupid so they get taken in by the Republican lies. It’s not like there’s any other alternative; the Republicans are crazy and unscrupulous. Supporting them means that you are too, or that you are too stupid/ignorant to realize it. And I think that _only_ 20% of the American population being either crazy or unscrupulous is an _optimistic_ number. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/122 "2011-11-30T00:29:57Z")
I suspect a lot of Republicans are quite sane and at least moderately scrupulous. I was going to say highly scrupulous, but that may be overly optimistic. The problem is when that sanity and scruple is tied to false knowledge put out by the highly unscrupulous or by those who hate and fear certain unpleasant (to them) facts. Sanity and scruple are not enough to save us. We have to be willing to see when the emperor has no clothes. “Supply-side” economics doesn’t increase the growth of the economy. Increasing the prison population damages the job market. It accelerates the collapse of entire sectors as the prisoners are used as shockingly underpaid labor, and drive respectable private companies out of business. It does appeal to unscrupulous politicians to felonize previously non-criminal activity (such as hiring someone without papers, or possessing controlled substances) as a way of having pretexts to cull votes. By disenfranchising portions of ethinc populations in the rival party’s base, the GOP can maintain control despite widespread public disapproval. This has been going on for a generation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/123 "2011-11-30T00:31:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What’s hilarious is that you (plural) manage to combine the belief that GOP is more and more marginalized by its appeal to “crazy and unscrupulous” in the face of the fact that the country is split 50/50 Rep/Dem. [Here’s](http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology/) a better picture of how the country is split. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/124 "2011-11-30T01:13:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s not like there’s any other alternative; the Republicans are crazy and unscrupulous. Supporting them means that you are too, or that you are too stupid/ignorant to realize it. You’re allowed to disparage groups of people, but you’re insulting another poster here. This is beyond the bounds of what is acceptable in Great Debates. I’m giving you a formal warning here and advising you to reconsider these kinds of attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/125 "2011-11-30T01:34:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’re allowed to disparage groups of people, but you’re insulting another poster here. This is beyond the bounds of what is acceptable in Great Debates. I’m giving you a formal warning here and advising you to reconsider these kinds of attacks. :dubious: My apologies, but I meant “you” in the generic collective sense. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/126 "2011-11-30T01:47:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What makes you think the conservatives are losing the war? If they aren’t, I’m not sure the U.S. will benefit from their idea of victory. It’ll be destroy the country in order to save it. A tad hyperbolic, to be sure, but I can’t see how _not_ raising taxes and _not_ imposing financial regulation and _not_ ending the quagmire wars does anything but hurt the country, or how seeking to ban abortion and gay marriage and restore “don’t ask, don’t tell” (or impose something stronger) does anything to help. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/127 "2011-11-30T03:03:24Z")
Raising taxes during a recession is a bad idea. There are reasonable arguments on both sides of that issue. There are no reasonable arguments for executing innocent people, declaring open season on gay teenagers, drone bombings of Pakistani weddings, or sundry other elements of our politics which are often (though hardly exclusively) cheered on by Republicans. The fact that the left has mishmoshed moral issues with reasonable disagreements about whether the top marginal tax rate should be 37 or 41 percent, to the point that it actually has more contempt for people who disagree with raising taxes than people who want to keep the Jim Crow laws for marriage, is a major reason Republicans can get away with this shit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/128 "2011-11-30T03:25:29Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Raising taxes during a recession is a bad idea. I agree, but you may be stuck because you _didn’t_ raise them when you should have, i.e. when the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were in full swing and it was increasingly obvious that they weren’t going to end anytime soon, i.e. 2004-ish. > [@](#): > > The fact that the left has mishmoshed moral issues with reasonable disagreements about whether the top marginal tax rate should be 37 or 41 percent, to the point that it actually has more contempt for people who disagree with raising taxes than people who want to keep the Jim Crow laws for marriage, is a major reason Republicans can get away with this shit. I’m not certain I fully get your drift, here. If I may suggest, the contempt is for people who won’t even _consider_ a tax raise regardless of what happens, _and_ who have misplaced social priorities. Either is problematic. In combination, deadly. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/129 "2011-11-30T04:55:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, the two front runners currently are Gingrich and Romney. Gingrich seems to be a theistic evolutionist > ([cite](http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/newt-gingrich-probably-not-a-creationist/)). And of course Huntsman is a candidate, and he isn’t a creationist. Palin is not a candidate. Cain is a candidate, at least at the moment - could you post a statement where he says he is a creationist, or is that something you just made up? I mentioned neither Palin nor Cain explicitly. [The Huff Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/24/2012-election-gop-candidates-evolution-_n_934045.html#s333339&title=Herman_Cain) has a full list here. Bachmann - creationist. Perry - creationist. Paul - creationist - Santorum - creationist. Huntsman - good guy, to be sure. Romney. Probably a good guy. Gingrich. Says he is both, so he is waffling (which shows what he think the base wants.) Cain hasn’t said anything, but he claims to be an evangelical, so there is probably more than a 50-50 chance. They are much worse on climate change, which is far more important. BTW, I haven’t criticized Romney at all on this. I’m pretty sure he understands climate change. It is the base of the party which has forced him to sound like he might be a denier: > [@](#): > > But on the campaign trail last month in New Hampshire, Romney said, “Do I think the world’s getting hotter? Yeah, I don’t know that, but I think that it is. I don’t know if it’s mostly caused by humans.” Gingrich is another example: From [here](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/11/gingrich-defends-shifting-statements-on-climate-change/) > [@](#): > > When it comes to global warming, Gingrich’s position seems to have changed faster than the climate. > > “I don’t know if he’s just being opportunistic or of he’s had a real change of heart, but it is a bit disconcerting,” said Jim DiPeso, the policy director for Republicans for Environmental Protection. > > In the more than 30 years since Gingrich was first elected to the House, he has said there is both sufficient evidence to prove the climate is changing and also that there is no conclusive proof. He supported a cap-and-trade program to limit carbon emissions and then later testified against it before a Congressional committee. > > And while in the House he co-sponsored a bill that said climate change was “resulting from human activities,” but he later said he did not know if humans were to blame. > > “There is no compelling evidence on either side to either rule it out or rule in it,” Gingrich’s spokesman R.C. Hammond said of the candidate’s position on global warming and the impact of man-made pollution. “But at the end of the day he’s somebody who does care about the environment.” That’s standing up for your convictions, folks! So here are two examples of people who probably know what is going on but trembling in fear from the Republican base. Huntsman is the only one speaking up for rationality - and you can see how well it is working. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/130 "2011-11-30T04:57:24Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Raising taxes during a recession is a bad idea. That’s true when the people you are raising taxes on would spend it. If they are not spending it - like our top 1% or 0.1% - you can raise taxes on them with very little impact. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/131 "2011-11-30T05:00:07Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If they aren’t, I’m not sure the U.S. will benefit from their idea of victory. It’ll be destroy the country in order to save it. > A tad hyperbolic, to be sure, but I can’t see how _not_ raising taxes and _not_ imposing financial regulation and _not_ ending the quagmire wars does anything but hurt the country, or how seeking to ban abortion and gay marriage and restore “don’t ask, don’t tell” (or impose something stronger) does anything to help. Well, that is the problem with the Republican party today. They don’t merely think that Democrats have bad ideas, they think Republicans have a monopoly on good ideas. In fact, their ideas are sooo good and Democrat ideas are soooo bad that even if they have to drag this country through hell to get their ideas implemented (but this time they will do it the right way, not the way they did it the last dozen times when their ideas didn’t work), because in the long run, THAT is what will be in the best interests of the country. See they are just patriots with a longer time horizon. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/132 "2011-11-30T05:22:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What makes you think the conservatives are losing the war? Conservatives always lose the war. First they lost the slave thing, then Jim Crow, then forced prayer in school, women’s rights, abortion, gays in the military, etc. Progress marches on and conservatives just try and hold it off as long as they can. It is inevitable that we will have same sex marriage and universal health care in the US, and conservatives will just delay it. Nature abhors a vacuum, and at some point no ones’ skull is thick enough to maintain the empty space within. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/133 "2011-11-30T06:03:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The fact that he says things like this - > sort of tipped me off that he was complaining about it. > > Regards, > Shodan Alternative history and facts is not hyperbole. Where else but the extreme right-wing news shows would you hear tripe like “America was founded as a christian nation on christian values”? Where else would you hear people lying their asses off about everything from the Iraq war to the president’s claimed religion. You wouldn’t have them asserting he wasn’t a US-born citizen. You shouldn’t have people ignoring scientific developments en masse. You shouldn’t have them pushing an economic ideal which has failed, time and time again, as though it was completely accurate. What you seem to miss is that after the part where he brings up this point about “conservative facts”, he does something else: _he gives examples and cites sources_. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/134 "2011-11-30T14:56:30Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Where else but the extreme right-wing news shows would you hear tripe like “America was founded as a christian nation on christian values”? Where else would you hear people lying their asses off about everything from the Iraq war to the president’s claimed religion. On left-wing news shows, and among Democrats. Come on, surely you haven’t forgotten the forged CBS documents, or the stuff about the October Surprise, or that the federal government is conspiring to suppress OWS, or how AIDS was manufactured by the government to kill blacks, etc.? This notion that the GOP is uniquely hypocritical is pretty silly and one-sided. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/135 "2011-11-30T15:26:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On left-wing news shows, and among Democrats. Come on, surely you haven’t forgotten the forged CBS documents, or the stuff about the October Surprise, or that the federal government is conspiring to suppress OWS, or how AIDS was manufactured by the government to kill blacks, etc.? > > This notion that the GOP is uniquely hypocritical is pretty silly and one-sided. > > Regards, > Shodan Quite true, but your contrary notion falls under the heading of “false equivalency.” The American LW has no noise-and-lies-machine comparable to the RW’s. As for the “October Surprise,” I’m **still** not ruling it out. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/136 "2011-11-30T15:31:22Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > What you seem to miss is that after the part where he brings up this point about “conservative facts”, he does something else: _he gives examples and cites sources_. And what you’ve forgotten is that **Shodan** has _not even read the article in question_, so of course he did not know about examples and cites. These are irrelevant in his world. Normally **Shodan** at least brings a vacuous and/or tenuous argument to Great Debates. This time, he’s just brought willfull ignorance of the article under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/137 "2011-11-30T15:35:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On left-wing news shows, and among Democrats. Come on, surely you haven’t forgotten the forged CBS documents, or the stuff about the October Surprise, or that the federal government is conspiring to suppress OWS, or how AIDS was manufactured by the government to kill blacks, etc.? > > This notion that the GOP is uniquely hypocritical is pretty silly and one-sided. > > Regards, > Shodan …Except that those are aptly-named “fringe” positions. As in, only the radical fringe believes them. The OWS one is a poor example, if only because a nationwide conspiracy, while unproven, at least matches the picture we have at the moment fairly well… It’s a bizarre, unproven idea, I will admit, but an interesting one nonetheless, and something that possibly should be investigated. But the others? I’m not sure about the numbers in regards to the forged CBS documents, or the number of us who currently believe that AIDS is a conspiracy, but I’ll give you a hint: they’re not anywhere near as large as the numbers I’m pointing to here. I have no idea what you’re even talking about in regards to the “October Surprise”, so whatever. Seriously, I’m really wondering what the figures are. The number of republicans who believe in Trickle-Down Economics is probably well above 50%, otherwise the party wouldn’t be able to keep its “economically sensible” moniker for more than a second. I’m willing to be well over 66% believe in the idea that we were founded as a christian nation, or at least on christian ideals. Damn near half the party (45% when last polled, IIRC) believe that the president is not a national-born citizen, despite offering up his long-form birth certificate. Viewers of fox news were, according to a PIPA study, 80% likely to have one or more major misconceptions regarding the Iraq war. Compare that to NPR/PBS, who had around 27% ([cite](http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/international_security_bt/102.php?nid=&id=&pnt=102&lb=brusc)). Hell, that’s just a few of the more extreme examples. What about global warming, where republicans who doubt it vastly outnumber democrats? What about evolution? What about the way the rest of the world views the USA? France’s role, diplomatically, in US foreign policy? These aren’t minority viewpoints, either. The number one conservative news source touts these proudly, _as though they were factually accurate_. Is it any wonder, then, that it feels to some of us like the republican party is living in its own little world, complete with its own history and facts? And it gets worse. Let’s contrast two issues: Birtherism and the forged CBS docs. What happened when the docs were revealed to be fakes? The democrats who had bought into it left the stage cringing, hoping it would soon be forgotten. Nowadays you’re not going to find people who still believe it, save for a very nutty, very small majority that most democrats would not be happy about. Now… What about Birtherism? Well, the man released his short-form birth certificate, and they didn’t shut up; they demanded the long-form for some reason. So he gave them that, and what do they do? Do they slink away with the realization that they were wrong and that the whole issue is stupid and makes them look like racists? _NO!_ They claim it’s a fake and continue to demand that the president be removed. They refuse to admit that they were wrong, and instead keep acting like they were right all along. What better way of putting this than claiming that they are out of touch with reality? And this isn’t just a few areas either; this is _virtually every area for the republican party_. From Birtherism to Creationism to Global Warming Denialism to the backbone of their economic policy in the last 30 years, Supply-Side, they are proven wrong time and time again and refuse to admit it, hoping instead that reality will mold itself around their beliefs. To equate the fact that some (even on occasion many) Democrats fall for stupid scams and smear jobs with the fact that much of the modern republican platform is grounded entirely in fantasy is ridiculous. @EP: of course, how could I be so stupid… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/138 "2011-11-30T15:35:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Quite true, but your contrary notion falls under the heading of “false equivalency.” The American LW has no noise-and-lies-machine comparable to the RW’s. Here’s one telling difference: A spammer who posts the same thread about the “global-warming hoax” on this and a dozen other messageboards might well be drawing an actual paycheck, directly or indirectly, from the Koch Brothers or some similar RW source prone to astroturfing. (We’ve been over that many times before, here.) **Nobody** earns any of George Soros’ money that way, AFAIK. More’s the pity. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/139 "2011-11-30T15:39:25Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Raising taxes during a recession is a bad idea. There are reasonable arguments on both sides of that issue. There are no reasonable arguments for executing innocent people, declaring open season on gay teenagers, drone bombings of Pakistani weddings, or sundry other elements of our politics which are often (though hardly exclusively) cheered on by Republicans. > > The fact that the left has mishmoshed moral issues with reasonable disagreements about whether the top marginal tax rate should be 37 or 41 percent, to the point that it actually has more contempt for people who disagree with raising taxes than people who want to keep the Jim Crow laws for marriage, is a major reason Republicans can get away with this shit. What evidence is there that raising taxes in a recession is a bad idea? How many jobs will be lost if Alex Rodriguez or Paris Hilton pay higher marginal rates? How did unemployment drop during the New Deal despite FDR’s raising of tax rates? The notion that all we have to do is let the wealthy keep more of their money and they’ll graciously create jobs is fit only for fairy tales. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/140 "2011-11-30T15:47:27Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > And what you’ve forgotten is that **Shodan** has _not even read the article in question_, so of course he did not know about examples and cites. These are irrelevant in his world. > > Normally **Shodan** at least brings a vacuous and/or tenuous argument to Great Debates. This time, he’s just brought willfull ignorance of the article under discussion. Actually, he seems to be arguing from a definite and more-or-less coherent position, which is that any complaint about the GOP’s course, made by a disgruntled Pub and published in the mainstream media, is dismissable on its face. Which is perhaps arguable, I suppose. But **Shodan** won’t really argue even **that,** nor will he actually address the actual thread topic of whether Frum is right or wrong, and how. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=8)