# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/141 "2011-11-30T15:55:52Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’m not sure about the numbers in regards to the forged CBS documents, or the number of us who currently believe that AIDS is a conspiracy, but I’ll give you a hint: they’re not anywhere near as large as the numbers I’m pointing to here. I give you a hint in return - after the CBS documents had been debunked, CBS issued a statement that they stood by them. Dan Rather mentioned that he still believed after his resignation. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what you’re even talking about in regards to the “October Surprise”, so whatever. [Arguments from ignorance can be easily refuted.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise_conspiracy_theory) And **BrainGlutton** has already demonstrated that there are those who still believe it, as is the case with Diebold and the nonsense about Ohio in 2004. > [@](#): > > @EP: of course, how could I be so stupid… Too easy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/142 "2011-11-30T16:21:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > URL=“[1980 October Surprise theory - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise_conspiracy_theory)”]Arguments from ignorance can be easily refuted. And **BrainGlutton** has already demonstrated that there are those who still believe it, as is the case with Diebold and the nonsense about Ohio in 2004. > Too easy. What current mainstream liberal advocates the claim that Reagan delayed the return of the hostages or that Diebold threw the 2004 Ohio vote to Bush? And what current mainstream liberal is holding up Dan Rather’s statement as reason to believe that the the documents are real? Rather is the one who broadcast the story; whether he says he believes they’re real is irrelevant because it’s his reputation and ego at stake. The question is who _else_ believes it. And for all these issues, which current liberal politicians are using these debunked claims to garner a following? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/143 "2011-11-30T16:23:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And **BrainGlutton** has already demonstrated that there are those who still believe it . . . No, I just don’t class it under the heading of conclusively-debunked theories, like Obama’s birth certificate. > [@Shodan](#): > > . . . as is the case with Diebold and the nonsense about Ohio in 2004. :rolleyes: And **those** are **definitely** not debunked theories. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/144 "2011-11-30T16:25:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But **Shodan** won’t really argue even **that,** nor will he actually address the actual thread topic of whether Frum is right or wrong, and how. Nor yet. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/145 "2011-11-30T16:39:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I give you a hint in return - after the CBS documents had been debunked, CBS issued a statement that they stood by them. Dan Rather mentioned that he still believed after his resignation. > > [Arguments from ignorance can be easily refuted.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise_conspiracy_theory) And **BrainGlutton** has already demonstrated that there are those who still believe it, as is the case with Diebold and the nonsense about Ohio in 2004. > Too easy. > > Regards, > Shodan …Holy shit, you just completely… …failed to address any part of my argument! I don’t care if individuals believe it; I’m wondering about real numbers. I don’t _care_ if Dan Rather or **BrainGlutton** or any random person still buys into that crap. It’s not something that the vast majority of democrats care about. Democrats who _do_ believe in it generally get shouted down; they’re like crazy Uncle Jim who wears a tinfoil cap to thanksgiving dinner because of the aliens: they’re with us, but we aren’t proud of it. Contrast the republican party. For fuck’s sake, look at your political lineup. You’ve got 4+ creationists, 7/9 who don’t believe in climate change, 9/9 who believe in trickle-down economics, and you _had_ one who was a birther. That’s your lineup for _presidential election_. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/146 "2011-11-30T16:43:51Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Contrast the republican party. For fuck’s sake, look at your political lineup. You’ve got 4+ creationists, 7/9 who don’t believe in climate change, 9/9 who believe in trickle-down economics, and you _had_ one who was a birther. That’s your lineup for _presidential election_. Be fair, we can hardly expect the GOP to marginalize its trickle-downers. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/147 "2011-11-30T16:56:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Here’s](http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology/) a better picture of how the country is split. I’m not buying the Pew typology. It shows that Dems comprise 40% of registered voters, while Repubs comprise just 25%. Dems only need to pick up 10% of the 35% of registered voters that the are classed as “Independent” by Pew. And 15% of those, the Post-Moderns, should be EASY for the Dems to pick up, since they are liberal on social issues. If the Pew Typology had any basis in reality the Dems would be sweeping every election. So, sorry, BrainGlutton, your numbers make no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/148 "2011-11-30T17:02:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Here’s one telling difference: A spammer who posts the same thread about the “global-warming hoax” on this and a dozen other messageboards might well be drawing an actual paycheck, directly or indirectly, from the Koch Brothers or some similar RW source prone to astroturfing. (We’ve been over that many times before, here.) **Nobody** earns any of George Soros’ money that way, AFAIK. More’s the pity. That’s another reason that Dems lose elections. They have demonstrated they can raise money pretty well, but they are stupid-cheap on how they spend it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/149 "2011-11-30T17:08:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I’m not buying the Pew typology. It shows that Dems comprise 40% of registered voters, while Repubs comprise just 25%. No, it doesn’t, those are the figures for typology groups that “lean” Dem or Pub; look closer, you’ll see that for each group they break down the number of registered voters and party registration and actual voting behavior. It all adds up right. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/150 "2011-11-30T17:21:48Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > That’s another reason that Dems lose elections. They have demonstrated they can raise money pretty well, but they are stupid-cheap on how they spend it. Indeed… Repubs spend it on astroturf organizations and slander campaigns, the dems on positive, uplifting messages. Boy, _this_ isn’t a battle we’ve seen hundreds upon hundreds of times in the past… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/151 "2011-11-30T17:32:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Indeed… Repubs spend it on astroturf organizations and slander campaigns, the dems on positive, uplifting messages. Boy, _this_ isn’t a battle we’ve seen hundreds upon hundreds of times in the past… I’d rather hear exciting policy specifics than uplifting messages, but maybe that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/152 "2011-11-30T17:35:51Z")
That’s just you. From the viewpoint of getting Repubs elected, the astroturfed Tea Party was a brilliant move, cost effective, too. True, Repubs like Frum are now riding a tiger and desperately want to get off, but of course, for the vast majority, that ain’t gonna happen. But hell, brilliant policy does not move the mouth-breathers who populate most of the Independent vote. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/153 "2011-11-30T17:48:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I give you a hint in return - after the CBS documents had been debunked, CBS issued a statement that they stood by them. Dan Rather mentioned that he still believed after his resignation. > > [Arguments from ignorance can be easily refuted.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise_conspiracy_theory) And **BrainGlutton** has already demonstrated that there are those who still believe it, as is the case with Diebold and the nonsense about Ohio in 2004. > Too easy. > > Regards, > Shodan Since you haven’t proven anything, may I have your apology now? Its well been establish that factually, only the fringe left, a tiny minority, believes or believed at one time, any of those so-called conspiracies you’ve cited. Compare that with the active mainstream right-wing who continually pushes the idea that anyone not as crazy as them are evil and unpatriotic. Sadly, you’ve bought into their lies. I think a little repenting will be good for you. I’m sure your kids are worried about you ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/154 "2011-11-30T18:09:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What current mainstream liberal advocates the claim that … Diebold threw the 2004 Ohio vote to Bush? BrainGlutton, in the post right below yours. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/155 "2011-11-30T18:12:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > BrainGlutton, in the post right below yours. Read the **whole** post. Read for comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/156 "2011-11-30T18:18:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > On left-wing news shows, and among Democrats. Come on, surely you haven’t forgotten the forged CBS documents, or the stuff about the October Surprise, or that the federal government is conspiring to suppress OWS, or how AIDS was manufactured by the government to kill blacks, etc.? > > This notion that the GOP is uniquely hypocritical is pretty silly and one-sided. > > Regards, > Shodan Please provide links to mainstream left wing shows that provided any coverage or any support to the claim that AIDS was manufactured by the government? To the level of support that birthers got? I read that Commie rag the New York Times everyday, and I vaguely remember seeing a mention or two about AIDS, which gave this idea all the credibility it deserves, that is none. As for the CBS documents, if your memory was better you’d know that these documents came at the end of the story about Bush’s somewhat spotty service record, and did not create the story. I have no proof that the document was forged by the right, but it makes a lot more sense than it being forged by the left. We do have documented evidence of right wing operatives distorting information, don’t we, so this claim is hardly extraordinary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/157 "2011-11-30T18:24:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As for the CBS documents, if your memory was better you’d know that these documents came at the end of the story about Bush’s somewhat spotty service record, and did not create the story. I have no proof that the document was forged by the right, but it makes a lot more sense than it being forged by the left. We do have documented evidence of right wing operatives distorting information, don’t we, so this claim is hardly extraordinary. It certainly would have been a classically Rovean solution. “Attack your opponent at his strengths!” CBS News’ strength was credibility, so . . . "Give them proof of the truth – but proof we can prove was **faked!"** ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/158 "2011-11-30T18:44:48Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Read the **whole** post. Did. Do you or do you not think that “Diebold threw the 2004 Ohio vote to Bush”? Or maybe I should put it as “Do you think it’s plausible that Diebold threw the 2004 Ohio vote to Bush”? And if you do think it’s plausible, how is it different from various right-wing conspiracy theories? Is it because you’re “smart” and they’re “dumb”? Well, they think the same of you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/159 "2011-11-30T18:50:22Z")
I also remember reading with great amusement various leftie “experts” that were “definitively proving” that Wiener’s pictures were fake. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/160 "2011-11-30T18:54:06Z")
Hi again **Terr** : Have you actually read David Frum’s article? Do you have any comment on it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=9)