# When Did The Italians Abandon Roman Dress? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988 "2010-07-25T23:07:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/1 "2010-07-25T23:07:41Z")
With the fall of the Western Roman Empire (ca. 575 AD), the whole imperial structure came crashing down-after that time, there were no more legions, no more aqueduct construction, and no more gladiatorial games. At that point, did the romans stop wearing togas? At what point did people abandon the the complete trappings of roman life, including dress? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/2 "2010-07-25T23:31:56Z")
Most Romans never wore togas. The Republic lasted ages, as did the Empire. You think clothing styles didn’t change over that length of time? Phooey. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/3 "2010-07-25T23:59:40Z")
As I recall, the Romans had various clothing fads, over the centuries, including the wearing of Gaulish and German clothing, so, just a **Bosda** says, it wasn’t like there was a sudden shift from togas to business suits. The western empire’s demise was less of a catastrophic shift than you might suppose - the later empire was very different from the Roman Republic, and much less classically ‘Roman’. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/4 "2010-07-26T00:12:02Z")
The west formally fell in AD 476. The imperial structure more or less did not come crashing down. What happened to urban life in the Late Empire in the west is much more complicated and subject to enormous debate. Just to clarify, when you say Roman, do you refer to people in Rome itself or more generally to inhabitants of the Roman polity? Togas themselves are well attest in art until at least the 6th century in the East. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/5 "2010-07-26T01:59:57Z")
Actually, this is a good question. When did Rome stop being Rome and start being Italy? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/6 "2010-07-26T02:31:16Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Actually, this is a good question. When did Rome stop being Rome and start being Italy? Metternich believed that Italy was just a “geographic expression” in 1847 and not yet _Italy_, whose unification was not achieved until decades later. The Italian peninsula was a great many things before Italy. Please keep in mind as well that already by the 3rd century AD, the importance of the city of Rome had become less practical and more symbolic. Most later emperors spent their entire lives without ever having set foot in Rome. Cities closer to the frontiers, like Trier, Nicomedia (Izmir), Milan, and of course, Constantinople eclipsed Rome in political (and certainly military) importance. It’s also worth remembering that for centuries after the fall of the West, the Byzantines referred to themselves as “Romans”. Were they any more or less Roman than the Carolingians, who claimed to rule the “Holy Roman Empire” and controlled the Lombard plain of northern Italy along with some key cities? I don’t know, honestly. It’s why these issues are still debated in Roman and early medieval history. The very idea of Roman-ness is problematic. The whole matter is even more confused because the Romans themselves self-consciously wrote about it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-italians-abandon-roman-dress/547988/7 "2010-07-26T03:08:12Z")
Better question: why is this in Great Debates? **ralph124c** , open a new thread in the correct forum. (As a hint, the name rhymes with “Beneral Bestions.”) I’m closing this one.