# When did the meaning of "martini" change **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278 "2012-08-12T16:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/41 "2012-08-13T14:24:25Z")
Props to Toucanna. I know it’s a parody joke, and a good one, but a Perfect Tanqueray martini up with a twist shouldn’t be that hard to get, unless you’re ordering in a club. Never seen someone shake a martini – I’m guessing some club owner figured out in addition to screwing all musicians customers should get more water with their drinks. Hate that shit. ---
**Author:** ![Woeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Woeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Woeg)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/42 "2012-08-13T14:38:11Z")
> [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](#): > > I don’t know, but when asked for one and you ask what they want in it half the time they don’t seem to know what they’re ordering and behave as if you’re an idiot for asking. I was bar tending in a tourist location so you couldn’t guess. Dirty martini drinkers always tell you exactly what they want. Ha! I was just gonna post that, as a huge fan of a dirty martini, I always order it thusly: Vodka martini, dirty, two olives, shaken. It’s never failed to produce exactly what I am looking for, taste wise, though granted, some bartenders are better than others at getting the right mix of vodka and vermouth. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/43 "2012-08-13T14:38:15Z")
Blue Sapphire straight up with an olive. And hold the Vermouth. I want to piss off the people who don’t like Martini snobs. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/44 "2012-08-13T14:45:32Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > a lot of the traditional martini snobs drink basically straight gin and try to pretend it’s a martini if they add homeopathic levels of vermouth, so they’re equally annoying. > [@Zsofia](#): > > What I find upsetting is the fact that people who call themselves real martini snobs want a big fat glass of gin with an olive in it. Go watch _The Thin Man_ and look at the size of them glasses! Plus I think there’s actual vermouth up in them, not just a bottled “waved over the top”! Hawkeye: I’m pursuing my lifelong quest for the perfect, the absolutely dryest martini to be found in this or any other world. And I \*think \*I may have hit upon the perfect formula. Trapper: Five-to-one? Hawkeye: Not quite. You pour six jiggers of gin, and you drink it while staring at a picture of Lorenzo Schwartz, the inventor of vermouth. Which is utter bullshit, because vermouth was invented by one Antonio Benedetto Carpano. [Link to page with picture](http://www.museotorino.it/view/preview/4aad57ffd8ed405e9eb33cefca6ec132), in case you wish to try the recipe. Me, I’d rather drink rioja while looking at Penélope Cruz. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/45 "2012-08-13T15:47:50Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If _[The Martini: An Illustrated History of an American Classic](http://books.google.com/books?id=A7NXUsfYLKkC&lpg=PA119&ots=PdKq8lNZnb&dq=%22vodka%20martini%22&pg=PA119#v=onepage&q&f=false)_ (1995) is to be believed then the vodka martini is even older than that. It says a recipe for a “Vodkatini” appeared in a 1951 book, and that while at that time it was considered rather shocking to make a martini with vodka “Today it is purely a matter of taste.” Very, very bad taste. > [@Zsofia](#): > > What I find upsetting is the fact that people who call themselves real martini snobs want a big fat glass of gin with an olive in it. Go watch _The Thin Man_ and look at the size of them glasses! Plus I think there’s actual vermouth up in them, not just a bottled “waved over the top”! I find the optimal ratio of Gin to Vermouth about 3:1. Try it. At that ratio, the tang of the vermouth balances perfectly with the gin. Also, for martinis, I prefer a more aromatic gin. Citadelle is my gin of choice. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/46 "2012-08-13T15:52:29Z")
> [@Toucanna](#): > > I started drinking martinis only about four years ago. I thought ordering a “martini” would get me what I wanted. I have since learned that to get what I want I need to ask for, “a gin martini with Tanqueray if you have it, middle-of-the-road, not too sweet, not to dry, with dry vermouth, with a lemon twist not a lemon wedge, if you have it, if you don’t have a twist, then **one** olive, not “dirty” but clean, stirred, not shaken.” > > If they don’t have dry vermouth, I tell the bartender to forget it and get me a beer. If I don’t give the bartender that long ridiculous order, I have no idea what I’m > going to be served. I really don’t want to be a martini snob, I just know what I like. (Hey, if I was a martini snob, I wouldn’t be asking for Tanqueray.) And that is why I only have them at home. > [@BubbaDog](#): > > Blue Sapphire straight up with an olive. > > And hold the Vermouth. I want to piss off the people who don’t like Martini snobs. That’s not a martini. That’s a gin with an olive garnish. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/47 "2012-08-13T16:31:02Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > So what do they call what used to be a martini? An old fashioned. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/48 "2012-08-13T16:35:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > There’s a school of thought that any cocktail served in a martini glass is a martini. I’m just going to point out that this school is the one that the short bus stops at. Martini = gin + vermouth + olive Vodka martini = vodka + vermouth Gibson = martini - olive + cocktail onion End. Of. Martini. Menu. > [@Critical\_Mass](#): > > To me a martini is gin, vermouth with an optional olive. > > However, I begrudgingly accept that “martini” in the common vernacular is a drink served in a glass of similar shape to the one my martini is served in. It isn’t so much what the drink is - it’s the shape of the serving vessel. Fuck that. To quote Jason Naismith: “Never give up. Never surrender.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/49 "2012-08-13T16:38:10Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > …and when you go to that school, it’s a short bus that comes and pickes you up. Dude, you ninja’d me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/50 "2012-08-13T16:40:10Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Citadelle is my gin of choice. That’s good stuff right there. I also really like Hendrick’s. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/51 "2012-08-13T16:46:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > To be fair a traditional “martini” is one part gin one part vermouth. Modern gin martini’s tend to have just a tiny touch of vermouth. They may as well just be called gin, neat with a splash of vermouth. _“Hearts full of Youth! Hearts full of Truth! Six parts gin to one part vermouth!”_ –T. Lehrer, “Bright College Days” (c. 1959) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/52 "2012-08-13T19:25:23Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > That’s good stuff right there. I also really like Hendrick’s. What’s a good way to make a martini from that? An olive seems wrong for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/53 "2012-08-13T21:42:18Z")
On my way home from work, I picked up a handle of Tanqueray, a bottle of Dolin De Chambery Dry, and cocktail onions. Ah, Gibsons! It was either that or head to the local martini bar. Tab and tip + cab fare and tip would likely cost more. Once again, I’m saving by drinking in bulk. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/54 "2012-08-13T22:09:21Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’m just going to point out that this school is the one that the short bus stops at. I feel compelled to defend myself here; if I ask for a Martini and get anything other than gin and vermouth, the bartender and I will be having words. Four-letter words. My Martinis are made with gin and my Manhattans are made with rye. Accept no substitutions. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/55 "2012-08-13T23:21:48Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I feel compelled to defend myself here; if I ask for a Martini and get anything other than gin and vermouth, the bartender and I will be having words. Four-letter words. No worries, **Johnny Bravo** ; I presumed all along that you were reporting, and not advocating. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/56 "2012-08-14T00:15:06Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > _“Hearts full of Youth! > Hearts full of Truth! > Six parts gin to one part vermouth!”_ > > –T. Lehrer, “Bright College Days” (c. 1959) That was almost a century past it’s “invention” by all three accounts. (San Francisco, Martinez and Martini Rossi were all the 1860’s and 1:1) Your recipe appears to be from the 1940’s ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/57 "2012-08-14T00:25:35Z")
My recipe for the world’s driest martini: Fill a martini glass 3/4 way with gin. Place two drops of dry vermouth in the room air humidifier. Wave martini glass under the air outlet. Garnish with an olive and serve. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/58 "2012-08-14T00:39:04Z")
I joke about “let the shadow of the vermouth bottle fall over the ice” but I really don’t care for simply cold gin. I do mix a 10:1 for myself, usually 5:1 for guests. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/59 "2012-08-14T00:54:46Z")
Yeah, why drink a martini if all you want to do is have chilled gin. Order gin with an olive instead! I used to do the extra dry martini technique of basically rinsing the glass or ice with vermouth, and then pouring it out (with the vermouth that sticks to the glass and ice being the right amount for an extra dry martini) but then I thought what’s the point? I do my martinis fairly wet now, anywhere from 2:1 to 4:1. But I’m not a big martini guy, overall. ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/60 "2012-08-14T04:24:40Z")
I did a “martini tasting” on a cruise ship last year, and [this is what we were served.](http://tinypic.com/r/16awfif/6) 5 flavored vodkas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278.md?page=4)