# When did the meaning of "martini" change **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278 "2012-08-12T16:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/61 "2012-08-14T04:42:19Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > My Martinis are made with gin and my Manhattans are made with rye. > > Accept no substitutions. A-fucking-men. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/62 "2012-08-14T04:50:09Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > My recipe for the world’s driest martini: > > Fill a martini glass 3/4 way with gin. Place two drops of dry vermouth in the room air humidifier. Wave martini glass under the air outlet. > > Garnish with an olive and serve. > > 😛 Winston Churchill had you beat. The story goes that during the war, when vermouth was hard to get, he would pour the gin, bow in the direction of France, and called it a drink. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/63 "2012-08-14T05:28:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I feel compelled to defend myself here; if I ask for a Martini and get anything other than gin and vermouth, the bartender and I will be having words. Four-letter words. > > My Martinis are made with gin and my Manhattans are made with rye. > > Accept no substitutions. Will you accept Canadian “rye” whisky, which may not contain any rye (the plant), but is called so for historical reasons? ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/64 "2012-08-14T06:31:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, why drink a martini if all you want to do is have chilled gin. Order gin with an olive instead! I was in a very fancy Toronto hotel last February. In the bar, I ordered a martini made with Bombay Sapphire. The barman poured some Bombay Sapphire over ice, and served it. My reaction: What is this? Bartender: Bombay on ice. That’s what you ordered. Me: No, I ordered a martini made with Bombay Sapphire gin. Where’s the vermouth? Bartender: You didn’t say vermouth. Me: I said “martini.” That implies vermouth. Bartender: Well most people who specify Bombay Sapphire don’t want vermouth. Me: 😕 Fortunately, the bar manager was nearby, and straightened things out. I got a proper martini made with Bombay Sapphire and vermouth (which, I was pleased to see, was Noilly Prat), and it was good. On the other hand, I recall a nice place in Calgary where I ordered a martini made with Bombay Sapphire, only to be informed by the young lady server that “we don’t have a vodka named ‘Bombay Sapphire’.” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/65 "2012-08-14T14:42:25Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > I was in a very fancy Toronto hotel last February. In the bar, I ordered a martini made with Bombay Sapphire. The barman poured some Bombay Sapphire over ice, and served it. > > My reaction: What is this? > Bartender: Bombay on ice. That’s what you ordered. > Me: No, I ordered a martini made with Bombay Sapphire gin. Where’s the vermouth? > Bartender: You didn’t say vermouth. > Me: I said “martini.” That implies vermouth. > Bartender: Well most people who specify Bombay Sapphire don’t want vermouth. > Me: 😕 > > Fortunately, the bar manager was nearby, and straightened things out. I got a proper martini made with Bombay Sapphire and vermouth (which, I was pleased to see, was Noilly Prat), and it was good. > > On the other hand, I recall a nice place in Calgary where I ordered a martini made with Bombay Sapphire, only to be informed by the young lady server that “we don’t have a vodka named ‘Bombay Sapphire’.” > > :smack: It always gives one a queasy feeling to notice one’s native language visibly shift under one’s feet. I feel like that over watching the death of the English subjunctive in my own lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/66 "2012-08-14T17:03:39Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > It always gives one a queasy feeling to notice one’s native language visibly shift under one’s feet. I feel like that over watching the death of the English subjunctive in my own lifetime. You can always call myself for some sympathy when it starts to get you down. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/67 "2012-08-15T03:54:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > You can always call myself for some sympathy when it starts to get you down. Were someone seeking sympathy, I’d recommend that she call you. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/68 "2012-08-15T04:12:19Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Will you accept Canadian “rye” whisky, which may not contain any rye (the plant), but is called so for historical reasons? No, a thousand times no. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/69 "2012-08-15T22:59:08Z")
I dislike distilled liquors in general and gin in especial particular,\* so I have little to contribute to this thread but the linguistic angle on it. Behold language change in action. Languages gotta change. It’s a natural law as fucking inevitable as the movement of plate tectonics, and, as in earthquakes, you can watch it happening before your very eyes. \*When I was 12 I drank myself sick pilfering my parents’ gin; ever since then the mere smell of it has nauseated me. It’s a biochemical conditioning that I can’t help. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/70 "2012-08-15T23:33:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > \*When I was 12 I drank myself sick pilfering my parents’ gin; ever since then the mere smell of it has nauseated me. It’s a biochemical conditioning that I can’t help. Hah! I have a similar experience with gin. I got into my parents liquor cabinet when I was a kid, got sick off gin. Couldn’t drink it for about eight years. Then, as a freshman in college, I got reacclimatized to gin, only to get sick off it from mixing it with, get this, cream soda. It’s every bit as horrible as it sounds. It took me three or four years to get back to being able to enjoy gin, and now I’m okay with it in a gin & tonic, as well as a gimlet, or a gin greyhound. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/71 "2012-08-15T23:55:20Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > William Powell drinks vodka martinis in the film _My Man Godfrey_ from 1936, so I’d say that variation has been around forever, or as long as vodka’s been available. We had many things in the '30s that the '50s wouldn’t have approved of: socialist city machines, working women, tap-dancing Hollywood clothes-horses as paragons of masculinity, and decadent pseudo-patricians pushing commie potato squeezin’s as a fit potation for civilized people. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/72 "2012-08-16T09:31:40Z")
If gin weren’t infused with juniper flavor, would it be identical with vodka? So if the Dutch gin makers back in early times had a bad juniper harvest one year and ran out of juniper, would they just produce vodka? 'Cause vodka is the only distilled liquor I can tolerate. “Commie potato squeezins potation.” LOL! A choice turn of phrase for connoisseurs of fine wit. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/73 "2012-08-16T10:32:13Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Will you accept Canadian “rye” whisky, which may not contain any rye (the plant), but is called so for historical reasons? Yeah, sure, maybe if I want to drink an Ontario or an Igloo or whatever the hell you make with Canadian ‘rye.’ But if I want a Manhattan, I’m using the best rye I can get my hands on - none of that 51% crap either. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/74 "2012-08-16T11:34:22Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > If gin weren’t infused with juniper flavor, would it be identical with vodka? So if the Dutch gin makers back in early times had a bad juniper harvest one year and ran out of juniper, would they just produce vodka? 'Cause vodka is the only distilled liquor I can tolerate. While juniper is the predominant flavor, it’s not the only one in gin. There’s often also angelica, coriander, citrus peels, etc. Bombay Sapphire, for example, boasts nine botanicals in addition to the juniper. But yeah, if you didn’t add any of that, you’d essentially just have a neutral spirit of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/75 "2012-08-16T16:12:53Z")
Hey, so did I do all right with Tanqueray and Dolin? I found Plymouth Gin, but I passed on it. Also I’m going to make my own cocktail onions. The store bought were fine, but these look promising: > **["The Best Gibson I've Ever Had"](http://offthepresses.blogspot.com/2009/09/best-gibson-ive-ever-had.html)** > > That's the response I've heard twice in one week upon serving different guests that simplest of drinks, the Gibson—or, as it is better known... ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/76 "2012-08-16T22:14:01Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But yeah, if you didn’t add any of that, you’d essentially just have a neutral spirit of some sort. Right, so to clarify my question: What is the difference between “neutral spirits” and “vodka”? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/77 "2012-08-16T22:22:16Z")
One tastes like shit, the other tastes like shit that’s been eaten and shit again, x100. Really, vodka = around 40% alcohol. Neutral grain spirits are distilled more times so that it’s almost pure alcohol, and especially isn’t preferred for the taste. Wikipedia says it’s 95%+ (190 proof) in the US. That’s near the “normal” max of ethanol percentage, anyway. It can be made from anything, but so can vodka AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/78 "2012-08-16T22:30:50Z")
So that leaves no difference between vodka and 40% neutral spirits? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/79 "2012-08-16T23:01:25Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > So that leaves no difference between vodka and 40% neutral spirits? [According to federal regulations](http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=27:1.0.1.1.3.3.25.2&idno=27): > [@](#): > > Class 1; neutral spirits or alcohol. “Neutral spirits” or “alcohol” are distilled spirits produced from any material at or above 190° proof, and, if bottled, bottled at not less than 80° proof. > > (1) “Vodka” is neutral spirits so distilled, or so treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, as to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color. > > (2) “Grain spirits” are neutral spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain and stored in oak containers. [There’s a little more info here, too, i fyou’re interested.](http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Vodka) ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/80 "2012-08-17T01:43:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I think you’d have to specify, something like “a traditional style gin-and-vermouth martini.” And you also have to tell them not to shake it. You unfortunately have to specify 'a real daiquiri, not a strawberry one" and then explain that it’s rum, lime juice and sugar to most bartenders. (most bartenders are to real mixologists what a teenage McDonald’s fry cook is to Julia Child) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278.md?page=5)