# When did the meaning of "martini" change **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278 "2012-08-12T16:43:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/81 "2012-08-17T04:14:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > You unfortunately have to specify 'a real daiquiri, not a strawberry one" and then explain that it’s rum, lime juice and sugar to most bartenders. > > (most bartenders are to real mixologists what a teenage McDonald’s fry cook is to Julia Child) Yeah, if you’re in the mood for a cocktail, it’s worth the extra dough to go to a Real McCoy cocktail bar. Otherwise, bourbon or scotch for me – especially if the craft beer options are nil. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/82 "2012-08-17T14:29:30Z")
I agree. If you are in a bar where you have to explain a very basic cocktail to the bartender, then you are better off just ordering a beer of a whiskey and soda. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/83 "2012-08-17T14:58:12Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I agree. If you are in a bar where you have to explain a very basic cocktail to the bartender, then you are better off just ordering a beer of a whiskey and soda. I remember going the piano lounge in Moscow’s Radisson back in the early '90s. My boss kept trying to order a martini, and the Russian waitress kept bringing back just plain Martini with no gin. Finally, in complete exasperation, she handed him a cocktail napkin and said “Would you write that down, please?” ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/84 "2012-08-17T17:04:23Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I agree. If you are in a bar where you have to explain a very basic cocktail to the bartender, then you are better off just ordering a beer of a whiskey and soda. What’s in that again??? I’ve had a bartender who needed reminding about what’s in a gimlet, and it came with nasty sour lime instead of Rose’s, because they were too cool to stock it. Also, they “didn’t have” sour mix (so lemon and simple syrup again). They also one stocked one or two categories of booze, had to go to the other bar to get tequila or whatever. Needles to say, they restructured soon after. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/85 "2012-08-17T17:28:10Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Also, they “didn’t have” sour mix (so lemon and simple syrup again). Well, that is “sour mix.” Nothing wrong with lemon (or a mix of lemon & lime, perhaps preferably) & simple syrup for “sour mix.” Those prepackaged sour mixes are disgusting. A good bar should make their own–it makes all the difference in the world to a drink. That said, I can appreciate the Rose’s comment. I kind of like half Rose’s, half fresh lime-syrup mix in my gimlet, but I’ll live with house lime-syrup and gin, and I sure as hell am not going to complain about just plain Rose’s and gin. But no thanks on sour or sweet-and-sour mix that comes in the bottle. Ugh. Vile, vile stuff. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/86 "2012-08-17T17:42:01Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > I remember going the piano lounge in Moscow’s Radisson back in the early '90s. My boss kept trying to order a martini, and the Russian waitress kept bringing back just plain Martini with no gin. Finally, in complete exasperation, she handed him a cocktail napkin and said “Would you write that down, please?” Yeah, I lived in Russia and there a martini was Martini vermouth and was primarily considered a girls’ drink. I remember explaining how to make a martini to a bartender. Now, if I get a blank look, I just order a beer. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/87 "2012-08-18T07:05:58Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > **When did the meaning of “martini” change?** > > When that bastard **MartiniEnfield** got ahold of it. Ruined it for everyone. That’d be 1895, in that case. 😃 (My user name primarily comes from the rifle, along with the stylish and cool mental image the name conjures up. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/88 "2012-08-18T07:52:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, that is “sour mix.” Nothing wrong with lemon (or a mix of lemon & lime, perhaps preferably) & simple syrup for “sour mix.” Those prepackaged sour mixes are disgusting. A good bar should make their own–it makes all the difference in the world to a drink. That said, I can appreciate the Rose’s comment. I kind of like half Rose’s, half fresh lime-syrup mix in my gimlet, but I’ll live with house lime-syrup and gin, and I sure as hell am not going to complain about just plain Rose’s and gin. But no thanks on sour or sweet-and-sour mix that comes in the bottle. Ugh. Vile, vile stuff. Well, I mean they had neither sour mix nor could/would he mix lemon juice and simple syrup. Mix is “ok” for me. I am not picky about either, but it seems to me that sugar, water, and lemon juice are basic bar properties. The gimlet was straight lime juice, no sugar I believe. Or I couldn’t taste it. He seemed proud or was told to say: we squeeze our own lime juice. Great, but could you make it taste good in the meantime? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/89 "2012-08-18T14:42:59Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Well, I mean they had neither sour mix nor could/would he mix lemon juice and simple syrup. Oh, yeah, I misunderstood. That is bizarre. I don’t understand how they can make a reasonable range of cocktails without simple syrup (given that they don’t have sour mix or Rose’s). ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/90 "2012-08-18T17:10:45Z")
[QUOTE=jaledin] Props to Toucanna. I know it’s a parody joke, and a good one, but a Perfect Tanqueray martini up with a twist shouldn’t be that hard to get, unless you’re ordering in a club. {snip} [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=madmonk] I agree. If you are in a bar where you have to explain a very basic cocktail to the bartender, then you are better off just ordering a beer of a whiskey and soda. [/QUOTE] BWAH HAH HAH snort chuckle guffaw LOL…sigh… Where do you live and can I move there where apparently the bartenders know what they’re doing? I wasn’t joking about having to give a ridiculously long-winded order in an oft-vain attempt to get what is supposed to be a pretty standard version of a classic cocktail. I probably should just give up and get some business cards with my preferred recipe printed up and laminated to hand to bartenders and waitstaff. Moving on…does anyone remember seeing characters in movies/TV shows mix up a “pitcher” of martinis? What are the gin:vermouth proportions in that recipe. How does one work the ice into the process? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/91 "2012-08-18T17:20:13Z")
And what about the martinis they made in the still in the Swamp on _MASH_. Were they some kind of recognizable martinis or just glasses full of moonshine? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/92 "2012-08-18T17:26:54Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > On my way home from work, I picked up a handle of Tanqueray, a bottle of Dolin De Chambery Dry, and cocktail onions. Ah, Gibsons! > > It was either that or head to the local martini bar. Tab and tip + cab fare and tip would likely cost more. Once again, I’m saving by drinking in bulk. Awesome userename/post combo, here. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/93 "2012-08-18T21:38:44Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Very, very bad taste. > I find the optimal ratio of Gin to Vermouth about 3:1. Try it. At that ratio, the tang of the vermouth balances perfectly with the gin. Also, for martinis, I prefer a more aromatic gin. Citadelle is my gin of choice. I’m having one right now. Yummy! ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/94 "2012-08-18T22:58:04Z")
I almost never ask for a just a martini I almost always specify the gin. The last thing you want is the well gin in a martini. When I was going to bars as a young man in Albuquerque during the early 90’s things like lemon drops etc. were called shooters and served in small tumblers. Now you will find the same basic drinks will be served in a martini glass and revered to as lemon drop martinis. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/95 "2012-08-18T23:20:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And what about the martinis they made in the still in the Swamp on _MASH_. Were they some kind of recognizable martinis or just glasses full of moonshine? They were “surgical enhancers”. With olives. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278/96 "2012-08-18T23:46:10Z")
> [@Toucanna](#): > > BWAH HAH HAH snort chuckle guffaw LOL…sigh… Where do you live and can I move there where apparently the bartenders know what they’re doing? I wasn’t joking about having to give a ridiculously long-winded order in an oft-vain attempt to get what is supposed to be a pretty standard version of a classic cocktail. I probably should just give up and get some business cards with my preferred recipe printed up and laminated to hand to bartenders and waitstaff… I live in Washington, DC. In fact, I just came from Gin Joint, a new bar that has a great selection of gins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-meaning-of-martini-change/631278.md?page=4)