# When did the restaurant become a thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 28, 2023, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487 "2023-02-28T16:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/21 "2023-03-02T18:36:40Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > In particular the Regency era restaurants were notorious as a venue for rich men to entertain the mistresses (something that could not obviously be done at home 🙂 ) … I like the way you phrased that. By placing the “not” where you did, you point out it’s perfectly possible to entertain mistresses at home. As long as you’re sufficiently non-obvious = discreet. In a big enough estate house that might be pretty easy really. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/22 "2023-03-03T02:30:30Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I think a “restaurant” has to have a menu you can select from Which presumes a level of literacy or a higher class of customer than the typically tavern. But surely there were taverns where they offered “chicken or fish”? (or did the airlines invent that?) Or at least “I can give you the one-penny stew, or the one-and-ha’-penny with beef”? ---
**Author:** ![fedman1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e495f1/32.png) [@fedman1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman1)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/23 "2023-03-03T02:53:55Z")
was NYC bigger than Philly or Boston in 1780s? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/24 "2023-03-03T03:16:37Z")
No, NYC didn’t pass Philly until around 1820. ---
**Author:** ![fordgt100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@fordgt100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fordgt100)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/25 "2023-03-03T03:23:43Z")
Shortly after the invention of lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/26 "2023-03-03T04:09:48Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > No, NYC didn’t pass Philly until around 1820. Every source I find places that event around 1790. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/27 "2023-03-03T05:58:08Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Which presumes a level of literacy or a higher class of customer than the typically tavern. But surely there were taverns where they offered “chicken or fish”? Indeed, there are places even today where there is no written menu. This past summer, we traveled through the Greek islands, and in a few of the older tavernas, we were invited to peek in the kitchen where the host opened each of the half-dozen stew pots one at a time, saying, today we have this, and this, and this, and this, so what would you like? I would disagree that it’s about literacy, necessarily, certainly not at this point; it’s a combination of longstanding tradition and the convenience for the host of not having to write and circulate a physical menu (not even the French style, where there are two or three small chalkboard menus prepared each day which are carried from table to table by the server and held for diner perusal). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/28 "2023-03-03T12:38:43Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Which presumes a level of literacy or a higher class of customer than the typically tavern. Literacy rates were around 20% in the Middle Ages overall, but the kind of people who were frequenting full-on taverns and inns, as opposed to just getting their small beer from a local alewife, would have skewed that very much towards the more literate side - look at Chaucer’s Pilgrims, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/29 "2023-03-03T12:51:53Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > > > I think a “restaurant” has to have a menu you can select from. > > As I understand it, at least in the United States, the first such establishment was Delmonico’s in New York, which first opened in the 1820s. Wikipedia says, “The original version was widely recognized as the United States’ first fine dining restaurant.” So not the first restaurant, just the first fancy one. ---
**Author:** ![jjakucyk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3d9bf3/32.png) [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/30 "2023-03-03T13:57:51Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/8lYhUjV5-Rg/maxresdefault.jpg "Where modern restaurants came from") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lYhUjV5-Rg) His videos on restaurant menus are quite fascinating too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/31 "2023-03-04T01:14:55Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Indeed, there are places even today where there is no written menu. There’s a Somali restaurant in Cleveland that I think my mother and I might have been the first white customers at. They had no menus, because most of their clientele was regulars who already knew what they served. We just walked in and said “Make us something tasty”, and they did. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/32 "2023-03-04T02:14:18Z")
There’s this… a tavern that served food… > **[Archaeologists find 5,000-year-old tavern -- including food remains -- in Iraq](https://www.cnn.com/style/article/5000-year-old-tavern-iraq-archaeology-intl-scli-scn/index.html)** > > Eating out seems to have been as popular 5,000 years ago as it is today, with archaeologists in Iraq uncovering an ancient tavern dating back to 2,700 BCE. ---
**Author:** ![mmmiiikkkeee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/edb3f5/32.png) [@mmmiiikkkeee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mmmiiikkkeee)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2023, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/33 "2023-03-06T19:50:34Z")
[See the menu from My Cousin Vinny](https://youtu.be/pWC0sKCS5oA) ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2023, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/34 "2023-03-07T13:12:28Z")
At this point I can’t help but recommend the movie Delicious. Set in pre-revolutionary France, it tells the story of what is claimed to be the first restaurant. In French with subtitles, it is a lovely movie. > **[Delicious - Official Trailer | IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/video/vi4176069401/)** > > France, 1789, just before the Revolution. A chef who ha been sacked by his master finds the strength to free himself from being a servant to open the first restaurant. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/35 "2023-03-16T18:09:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s a Somali restaurant in Cleveland that I think my mother and I might have been the first white customers at. They had no menus, because most of their clientele was regulars who already knew what they served. We just walked in and said “Make us something tasty”, and they did. Sounds like Kifayah’s kitchen. They will be missed. They did have menus though. Started with a whiteboard on the counter and eventually a small menu, with one half in English and the other half in Arabic. if you were so inclined, or adventurous, they even sold camel milk! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/36 "2023-03-16T19:22:29Z")
Which revelation led me to this blog post that adventurous eaters might enjoy > **[Making Camel Milk Cheese by Becca Heins](https://blog.cheesemaking.com/making-camel-milk-cheese-by-becca-heins/)** > > A year ago, we posted an interview with Becca Heins when she earned her prestigious Cheese Professional Certification from the American Cheese Society (click here).  She spent 6 months preparing fo… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487/37 "2023-03-16T22:16:40Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Sounds like Kifayah’s kitchen. They will be missed. Aw, man, I hadn’t realized they’d closed-- That’s a shame. It always seemed busy. I guess they hadn’t been around long enough to build up a rainy-day fund to survive covid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-restaurant-become-a-thing/980487.md?page=1)