# When did the "Welsh" language die out in Scotland and Cumbria? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 3, 2002, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153 "2002-08-03T09:41:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/1 "2002-08-03T09:41:45Z")
I’m talking about the P-Celtic language that became Welsh, Cornish and Breton. Place names such as “Linlithgow” suggest it was spoken in southern Scotland. I’ve read speculation that it was still spoken here around the time of Wallace, alongside Gaelic and Scots. I’ve also heard that Cumbrian shepherds still use “Welsh” words for counting sheep. So is there any documentation that shows when the language was still being spoken every day in these areas? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/2 "2002-08-03T12:20:03Z")
As far as I know, the Cumbrian language was distinguishable from Welsh starting in about the 9th century and survived into Norman times, which would seem to give it a rather short history as a separate language. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/3 "2002-08-03T12:30:44Z")
Uh… “welsh” or more precisely “brythonic language” was not and is not spoken in Scotland except by visitors. The gaelic tongues - Scotch, Irish, and I think Manx (maybe) were a separate branch of the Celtic tongues. However, even if Welsh and Scots Gaelic aren’t sisters, they’re still cousins. The place name similarity you’ve picked up on probably comes from the similarities of the two language groups rather than a transplanted or supplanted language. And, at one point they probably did share a border, but by the time of Wallace English lived between the two groups. And the sheep counting? English numbers… “one”, “two”, “three” French (phonetic)… “un” “der” “twa” Gaelic (phonetic)… “ain”, “do”, “tree” There’s some similarity there, even with three very different languages. Throw in some German, with “Ein” for “one”, and you might acuse Socts Gaelic shepherds of counting in German! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/4 "2002-08-03T12:56:00Z")
Um, Broomstick, I was not talking about Gaelic, and the shepherds I mentioned do not live in Scotland. Gaelic came to what’s now Scotland roughly around the 6th or 7th centuries. I believe that Brythonic had been spoken in Scotland for several centuries before then, and continued for a long time afterwards. I think the later Picts are believed to have spoken Brythonic. I haven’t looked for a citation for this, but I feel your assertion that Brythonic was never spoken here is the more controversial one. After all, acsenray backs me up in saying it was spoken in Cumbria, which borders southern Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/5 "2002-08-03T16:57:45Z")
Look up something called **Strathclyde** , which was a Brythonic kingdom with approximate bounds at the Clyde and Mersey estuaries (though boundaries of course varied). It was still around in the late first millennium AD, though it eventually fell to the Northumbrians (a branch of the Angles). The “Scots” (who were Irish) settled Dalriada (Galloway) from Ulster ca. 600 AD and spread north from there into Glasgow, the Highlands, and the Isles; they are effectively the origins of Scots Gaelic. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/6 "2002-08-03T20:07:56Z")
Well, actually, the sixth century was when Christian missionaries arrived in Scotland from Ireland, most notably [St. Columba.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/scottishhistory/earlychurch/features_earlychurch_iona.shtml) The Scots, a people from Ireland (“scot” comes from “scotus,” Latin for “irish”) actually arrived [much earlier than that](http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/scotland/raids_west.shtml), around 250 AD/CE. ---
**Author:** ![Squish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Squish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squish)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/7 "2002-08-03T20:52:41Z")
I just wanted to point out: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by G. Odoreida \* > \*\*I’m talking about the P-Celtic language that became Welsh, Cornish and Breton. \*\* Now, I don’t know what the Picts spoke, but I take it that **G.** is assuming they spoke a language related to the Brythonic languages. He is not referring to the Goidelic languages (Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-welsh-language-die-out-in-scotland-and-cumbria/122153/8 "2002-08-04T03:17:45Z")
I don’t know much about the Picts. I think it was only recently that it was discovered that they did, indeed, speak a Celtic language. I can only assume that it was a Brythonic language. The arrival of the Goidelic-speaking Scots from Ireland and the eventual union of the Scottish and Pictish kingdoms, I take it, resulted in the primacy of Gaelic in western and northern Scotland. The arrival of the Anglo-Saxons pushed the Brythonic-speaking Celts westward (and south across the channel to Armorica). This resulted in four major isolated Brythonic populations – Cumbria, Wales (also known in Latin, confusingly, as Cumbria or Cambria, from “Cymry”), Cornwall (Dumnonia or West Wales), and Brittany (Armorica, Bretagne, Breizh). Continued isolation eventually caused the languages of these four groups to diverge into what are considered separate languages. Gaelic, in the meanwhile, was diverging into Scottish Gaelic, Manx, and Irish. Although Cumbrian was primarily located in the northwest of England, I’m pretty sure it did extend a little bit into southwestern Scotland. In southeastern Scotland, of course, the Celts were pushed out by the Angles, whose language was the ancestor of Scots (Lallans).