# When did they change the second line of Amazing Grace? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643 "2012-12-10T21:50:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/41 "2012-12-11T19:49:56Z")
> [@hrhomer](#): > > No. Explain if you will. Or not, if I want to know badly enough, I’ll look it up. The brief version, in epitaph form: “John Newton, Clerk, once an infidel and libertine, a servant of slaves in Africa, was, by the rich mercy of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had long labored to destroy.” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/42 "2012-12-11T20:10:49Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Sounds like they watered down your doctrine, too. The idea that we are wretched scum without God is the entire point of salvation. If we weren’t horrible, God wouldn’t have needed to send his Son to save us. This is true in some strains of Christian thought, and not in others. There’s no logical connection–people can need saving without being “wretched scum,” indeed, without being horrible. > [@](#): > > Personally, I think it’s aesthetically displeasing. Holding out “me” that long sounds weird. Since it almost melisma anyway, nowadays, I’d suggest adding another syllable. “That saved and set my soul free!” That reads as saying “…that saved my soul free,” which is not quite ungrammatical but seems meaningless in the “colorless green ideas” sense. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/43 "2012-12-11T20:17:15Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Yeah, maybe Catholics have had enough of all that Christianity shit. :rolleyes: I am pretty sure that this angry, little comic pamphlet I found said that happened a while ago. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/44 "2012-12-11T20:37:11Z")
> [@panamajack](#): > > The brief version, in epitaph form: > > “John Newton, Clerk, once an infidel and libertine, a servant of slaves in Africa, was, by the rich mercy of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had long labored to destroy.” So he rented a boat, bought back a bunch of Black people and took them home, right? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/45 "2012-12-12T00:05:50Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Did you know you can sing the words of “Amazing Grace” to the music from the “Gilligan’s Island” theme song? And vice versa. > > Give it a try. And when did they change the second line of “The Ballad of Gilligan’s Island” to “A tale of a faithful switch”? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/46 "2012-12-12T00:11:26Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > I prefer singing “The Marines’ Hymn” (“From the halls of Montezuma…”) to the _Gilligan’s Island_ tune. > > Back when I was in high school, -mumble- years ago, we used to sing Amazing Grace" to the tune of “The House of the Rising Sun.” > > The above tunes also work well with “Clementine” and the “Ode to Joy”… I post this often enough, I’m somewhat afraid of becoming boring, but … All these songs can each be sung to the others: Amazing Grace Mickey Mouse Club Theme Song Stairway to Heaven [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2lTB-UVvs](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2lTB-UVvs) House of the Rising Sun Yankee Doodle Pop Goes the Weasel Peaceful Easy Feeling I’d Like to Teach the World to Sing Yellow Rose of Texas Ghost Riders of the Sky Rocky Top Lion Sleeps Tonight Tangled Up in Blue Whiter Shade of Pale Light My Fire O Little Town of Bethlehem Jingle Bells God Rest Ye Merry, Gentlemen Greensleeves Jolly Old St. Nicholas The First Noel O Tannenbaum It Came Upon a Midnight Clear I’ll Be Home for Christmas Take Me Out to the Ball Game In-a-Gadda-da-Vida Marines’ Hymn Wabash Cannonball America the Beautiful The Internationale Onward Christian Soldiers Ode to Joy Mack the Knife A Hundred Bottles of Beer Clementine La Cucaracha Semper Paratus The Wearing of the Green (The Rising of the Moon) The Itsy-Bitsy Spider I’ve Been Working on the Railroad Sympathy for the Devil Rollin’ Down to Old Maui Acres of Clams Bread and Roses Sink the Bismarck Forest Green (UK “Little Town of Bethlehem”) Tomorrow Belongs to Me The Girl I Left Behind Me The Wabash Cannonball MacNamara’s Band Poems that apply: Jabberwocky Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening Rime of the Ancient Mariner Little Miss Muffet Jack and Jill Doctor Foster went to Gloucester Little Jack Horner Itsy Bitsy Spider Mary Mary Quite Contrary Anything by Emily Dickinson If there are any more, I’d love to add them to the list! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_A.Robrin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sam_a.robrin/32/14497_2.png) [@Sam\_A.Robrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_A.Robrin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/47 "2012-12-12T00:24:08Z")
I started a new thread so as not to get this one off the island-- I mean _topic_. (Now, how do I delete my previous post?) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/48 "2012-12-12T00:28:19Z")
> [@Sam\_A.Robrin](#): > > I started a new thread so as not to get this one off the island-- I mean _topic_. > (Now, how do I delete my previous post?) Linky? here it is! > **[Songs That Can Be Sung To (or to which you can sing) "The Ballad of...](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675269)** > > As far as I know, this parlor game began in the 1960s, when science-fiction fans began scouting around for a melody to fit “The Green Hills of Earth” from a short story of the same name by Robert A. Heinlein. Here’s the list I have so far–any... ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/49 "2012-12-12T23:26:45Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > “Wretch” is an artifact of Calvinist theology, specifically the doctrine of “Total Depravity” - the idea that apart from the grace of God, we are completely incapable of refraining from evil or choosing to follow God; i.e. we are miserable wretches until God saves us by His grace. Correction–the doctrine of Total Depravity is a **CHRISTIAN** doctrine. It has nothing to do with Calvinism _per se_. > [@hrhomer](#): > > I think you’re right. OR, I was just oblivious and not paying attention to my religious instruction. When I left Trenton, NJ and went down south to Atlanta for college, I was shocked at the brutality, for lack of a better word, of Catholicism and religions in general - not brutal in the Crusades sense, but brutal in how believers are made to see themselves. I was never taught how wretched humans are before god. We were taught that god loves us all. And yet I still became an atheist. > [@Frylock](#): > > This is true in some strains of Christian thought, and not in others. There’s no logical connection–people can need saving without being “wretched scum,” indeed, without being horrible. The Bible is extremely clear in many different places that while God does indeed love mankind, man without God is in fact a vile, worthless creature. Psalm 14:2, 3– “The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Proverbs 30:12– “There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.” Isaiah 64:6– “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” And this is how the Apostle Paul put it in I Timothy 1:15 (emphasis added)– “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; **of whom I am chief**.” ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/50 "2012-12-12T23:36:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I have heard covers of _Folsom Prison Blues_ where “They say I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die” was changed to, “They say I shot a man in Reno, that was just a lie”. And I imagine Johhny Cash gritting his teeth in his grave. Something about this sent me off to do a little research, and I found [this very disappointing factoid](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folsom_Prison_Blues#History): > [@](#): > > According to Michael Streissguth, the cheering from the audience following the line “I shot a man in Reno / just to watch him die” was added in post-production. A special on the Walk the Line DVD indicates that the prisoners were careful not to cheer at any of Cash’s comments about the prison itself, fearing reprisal from guards. Feh. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/51 "2012-12-12T23:56:43Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Something about this sent me off to do a little research, and I found [this very disappointing factoid](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folsom_Prison_Blues#History): > > Feh. Yes, I had heard that before. I forget about it when I listen to the song, though. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/52 "2012-12-13T00:08:46Z")
Soylent Juicy, who started this thread, told me I could comment on other hymns that had been changed. One change I dislike is in the Christmas carol “It Came Upon A Midnight Clear” The final verse I learned as For lo the days are hastening on By prophets seen of old When with the ever circling years Shall come the time foretold _When the new heaven and Earth shall own_ The Prince of Peace their king\* And the whole world send back the song Which now the angels sing. \*own is used in the sense of “to acknowledge” Lines five and six I’ve seen changed in some places to _When peace shall over all the world It’s ancient splendors fling_ Namby pamby change. I’m sorry to say the Episcopal hymnal where I attend church has mutilated “What Child is This?” Each of the three verses is supposed to have a different ending. But ours wimped out and has the same ending for each verse, the second and third being the same as the first, “Haste, haste to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary” This negates the future happenings being foreshadowed in this hymn. I guess some people think it’s squicky to think of a sleeping baby, and then follow it with "Nails, spear, shall pierce him through, the cross be borne for me, for you. Some changes I do like. In “Joy to the World” it would read “Born to raise the sons of Earth” Even as a girl I wondered about that line, now our hymnal reads “Born to raise each child of Earth” I’m Episcopalian now, but I was raised in a very conservative Lutheran church. The well-known hymn, “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” in our hymnal contained the lines \*And take they our life, Goods, fame, child and wife Let these all be gone They yet have nothing won The Kingdom’s ours forever! \* Okay, I tought as a kid, what does _that_ mean? I’ll never have a wife, so what am I, chopped liver? I much prefer the following _Let goods and kindred go this mortal life also The body they may kill God’s truth abideth still And He shall reign forever!_ It’s the sense of the thing that matters, isn’t it? After all AMF wasn’t written in English anyway, so there’s at least four or five different translations of the whole thing that I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/53 "2013-01-07T18:26:00Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Correction–the doctrine of Total Depravity is a **CHRISTIAN** doctrine. It has nothing to do with Calvinism _per se_. Yes, it does. Like **Skammer** says, it’s “the idea that apart from the grace of God, we are completely incapable of refraining from evil or choosing to follow God,” so only those God elects to be saved can be saved, because we don’t even have enough goodness in ourselves to respond positively to God’s love, so only those whom God has predestined for salvation will be saved. IOW, it’s the foundation for the linked notions of the ‘elect’ and predestination, which distinguish Calvinism from the rest of Protestantism. BTW, did you know that the game _Candy Land_ is a very good model for the Calvinist notion of the ‘elect’? Assuming someone wins in the first trip through the deck (not always a valid assumption, which is the only place the model fails), the outcome is predetermined once the cards are shuffled and the order of play is decided. One of the players is the ‘elect,’ the others aren’t, and it’s all predestined. (The things I think about while playing Candy Land with my son. I hope he outgrows the damned game soon!) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/54 "2013-01-07T18:56:51Z")
I haven’t heard or read this version. I think I approve, because I always hated the line “saved a wretch like me”. No matter how awful or downtrodden I’ve felt, I never thought of myself as a “wretch”. I used to work with someone who thought the line was “Saved a _WENCH_ like me…” This makes me think of images like this [http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;\_ylt=A0PDoYA7GutQ1E0AKPeJzbkF;\_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F\_adv\_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dwench%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D4&w=600&h=750&imgurl=wenchwatch.co.uk%2Fassets%2Fbeerwenches.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwenchwatch.co.uk%2F&size=68.6+KB&name=revision+notes+oop+uml+link+to+ibms+uml+shizzle+class+diagrams+are+the+...&p=wench&oid=d76b8d7a60a47972462be5371000d3ee&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-701&tt=revision%2Bnotes%2Boop%2Buml%2Blink%2Bto%2Bibms%2Buml%2Bshizzle%2Bclass%2Bdiagrams%2Bare%2Bthe%2B...&b=0&ni=200&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=10ovg4upg&sigb=133hcrt9g&sigi=117q54kgn&.crumb=G.kSrW0OssH](http://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=A0PDoYA7GutQ1E0AKPeJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTBlMTQ4cGxyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1n?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dwench%26fr%3Dyfp-t-701%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D4&w=600&h=750&imgurl=wenchwatch.co.uk%2Fassets%2Fbeerwenches.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwenchwatch.co.uk%2F&size=68.6+KB&name=revision+notes+oop+uml+link+to+ibms+uml+shizzle+class+diagrams+are+the+...&p=wench&oid=d76b8d7a60a47972462be5371000d3ee&fr2=&fr=yfp-t-701&tt=revision%2Bnotes%2Boop%2Buml%2Blink%2Bto%2Bibms%2Buml%2Bshizzle%2Bclass%2Bdiagrams%2Bare%2Bthe%2B...&b=0&ni=200&no=4&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=10ovg4upg&sigb=133hcrt9g&sigi=117q54kgn&.crumb=G.kSrW0OssH) Motivates me, it does, to help bring them back into the fold. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/55 "2013-01-07T19:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Baker** : > > I’m sorry to say the Episcopal hymnal where I attend church has mutilated > “What Child is This?” > > Each of the three verses is supposed to have a different ending. But ours wimped out and has the same ending for each verse, the second and third being the same as the first, “Haste, haste to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary” > > This negates the future happenings being foreshadowed in this hymn. I guess some people think it’s squicky to think of a sleeping baby, and then follow it with "Nails, spear, shall pierce him through, the cross be borne for me, for you. Is “nails” actually the original version, or did the change go the other way around? I’ve always seen it without nails in Catholic hymnals, and only learned of the existence of the nails version a few years ago. Either way, though, I agree that the nails version is better, just like I’m always annoyed when people skip the myrrh verse of “We Three Kings”. The Crucifiction and Resurrection is what makes Jesus important, and his birthday worth celebrating, and it’s good to have the occasional reminder of that. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643/56 "2013-01-07T21:17:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Either way, though, I agree that the nails version is better, just like I’m always annoyed when people skip the myrrh verse of “We Three Kings”. The Crucifiction and Resurrection is what makes Jesus important, and his birthday worth celebrating, and it’s good to have the occasional reminder of that. Good to see someone agrees with me!😃 I agree, leaving out the hard parts of songs robs the rest of meaning, or at least changes it. It’s not a hymn, but “Good King Wenceslas” is often sung with just the first, third, and fifth verses. In the second verse the king is just asking the page who the peasant is, and where he lives. But if you don’t sing the fourth verse you get a different view of the king. In the fourth verse the page calls out to the king telling him he can’t go any further, it’s too cold, so the king tells the page to walk in his footsteps. So the king is actually conscious of his saintliness, or virtue, not unaware of it as you might think if you don’t sing the fourth verse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-they-change-the-second-line-of-amazing-grace/643643.md?page=2)