# When did tits become obscene? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996 "2006-11-19T00:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Myglaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Myglaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myglaren)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/21 "2006-11-19T13:16:41Z")
[QUOTE=MrFloppy] And I remember seeing tits on terrestrial Brit TV as far back as 1976. It was an episode of ‘The Sweeny’. Bloody FCC! [/QUOTE] I remember it well, it was [Marina Sirtis!](http://www.marinasirtis.tv/intro/flash.htm) ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/22 "2006-11-19T13:46:14Z")
[QUOTE=even sven] I know women here that wear a headscarf and veil, but think nothing of walking down the street topless. Its considered just about obscene to show your knees. [/QUOTE] You live in Cameroon? I don’t really believe this statement. Do you have a cite, or (preferably) some photographic evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/23 "2006-11-19T15:14:23Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] You live in Cameroon? I don’t really believe this statement. Do you have a cite, or (preferably) some photographic evidence? [/QUOTE] When I lived in Mali, people would often come to the gate begging or selling items. Often the women were uncovered above the waist, and it was entirely asexual. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/24 "2006-11-19T15:21:36Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] While it’s tempting to accuse people of the Book for this (what an ugly phrase) [/QUOTE] Um… why ugly? If this is a PC thing, I refuse to cooperate. I learned that phrase in a heavily attended history class at a public university less than five years ago. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/25 "2006-11-19T15:38:55Z")
[QUOTE=SkiDemon] Well what about the fetishiation of the breast? Back in the twenties (that is the nineteen twenties) the flat chested look was POPULAR?!?! :eek: It wasn’t until Playboy made the breast over sexualized that they became very obscene. I mean I’m a breast girl (am bi) but I still think our society, oversexualitizes breasts. I mean breasts are FUCKING ULITARIAN! They’re to feed babies! [/QUOTE] Up to this point I have been a Universal Ulitarian but I’m thinking I may have to change religions now. 😃 I sort of see what you’re saying, but really, most fetishized parts of the human body are intended for something other than sexuality… the legs and buttocks for walking, the hair for warmth, the anus for excreting, the reproductive organs for reproducing. Personally I think it’s good that we can eroticize other parts of the body, because otherwise porn would all be gaping vaginal shots, which would be utterly boring. So I don’t understand why the sexualization of breasts in particular would be bothersome. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/26 "2006-11-19T16:05:18Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Not really. Female apes feed their babies perfectly well without the hypertrophied breasts found in female humans. The large breasts of female humans, not found in most other primates, are primarily a sexual signal. They are much larger than they need to be just to feed babies. Some have theorized that they are intended to mimic buttocks, and first developed as a sexual stimulus when humans began to copulate mainly front-to-front instead of doggie-style. [/QUOTE] The breasts of the bonobo (pygmy chimpanzee) are also somewhat prominent, though not to the extent of humans. It’s worthwhile to note that, of the great apes, the bonobo is the most highly sexualized, routinely engaging in sexual activities with chimps of their own tribe and of other tribes as a means of social bonding. We can’t really know of the development (in terms of size) of the female breast in _Hominini_, but it’s a good bet to infer that the shape and size of the breast is dictated by something other than purely utilitarian influences. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/27 "2006-11-19T16:50:57Z")
[QUOTE=Chefguy] When I lived in Mali, people would often come to the gate begging or selling items. Often the women were uncovered above the waist, and it was entirely asexual. [/QUOTE] But they don’t normally wear a veil though, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/28 "2006-11-19T18:02:59Z")
[QUOTE=Sattua] Um… why ugly? If this is a PC thing, I refuse to cooperate. I learned that phrase in a heavily attended history class at a public university less than five years ago. [/QUOTE] There are three books involved, the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran. One of the religions venerates two of them. You can use people of the Book individually as Jews or Muslims do to refer to themselves, but religions of the Book to include all three, especially Christians, clunks historically and aesthetically, IMO. Not everything is a “PC thing” and not all PC things are wrong to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/29 "2006-11-19T18:12:33Z")
[hijack] [QUOTE=Sattua] Um… why ugly? If this is a PC thing, I refuse to cooperate. I learned that phrase in a heavily attended history class at a public university less than five years ago. [/QUOTE] I’ll guess that **Exapno Mapcase** would think that class was the one being “PC”, and would prefer the more explicit “Judeo/Christian/Islamic”. Hey, **I** got the meaning right away so at leas for me it worked, and it’s not particularly ugly… Though it is a good point, that prudery about the breast was not just one of those things introduced by the followers of patriarchal monotheism to ruin the fun off all the happy pagans. The Romans, specifically, did have a large place for erotica in art and religion \ ***BUT** \* were simultaneously very concerned with formalistic restrictions of when and where the nudity and sex was or was not appropriate. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/30 "2006-11-19T18:14:08Z")
…and of course he posts his explanation while I’m writing mine… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/31 "2006-11-19T18:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] There are three books involved, the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran. One of the religions venerates two of them. You can use people of the Book individually as Jews or Muslims do to refer to themselves, but religions of the Book to include all three, especially Christians, clunks historically and aesthetically, IMO. Not everything is a “PC thing” and not all PC things are wrong to begin with. [/QUOTE] My understanding is that the term [People of the Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book) is an Islamic one, and specifically includes Jews and Christians as well as Muslims. All three religions venerate the Torah; Christians venerate that and the New Testament; and Muslims venerate both of these plus the Koran. Of course, interpretations of the significance of the three books vary among the religions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/32 "2006-11-19T18:52:21Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] My guess is that the great coverup happened somewhere around or before 500 CE, when the Roman Empire converted to Christianity. As the Western Roman Empire slowly fell, Christianity, a male-dominated authoritarian religion from the middle east, throve. That religion would bring a middle-eastern cultural heritage of covering the body, which I suspect was originally utilitarian. Did Romans in pagan and republican times tend to cover up? Have there been middle-eastern cultures that did _not_ cover up? . [/QUOTE] No, there doesn’t seem to be a great change in womans fashions as regards breast covering before/after Xtianity. The roman polythesitic faith was also by-and-large a “male-dominated authoritarian religion” as were just about every religion out there, as far back as history goes. Even the ancient Greeks \*mostly \*covered the female breast. It seems to me to be mostly a climate thing- in Europe and Northern asia,where is was too cold to run around half-naked, people covered up more. Then, breats became somewhat taboo.However, during the late-middleages early renn, women fashions became so low cut that they might as well have been topless. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/33 "2006-11-19T19:27:55Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] My understanding is that the term [People of the Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book) is an Islamic one, and specifically includes Jews and Christians as well as Muslims. [/QUOTE] If you mean to refute my saying that Jews also use the term, then why post a link to a cite whose first sentence is: > [@](#): > > The term People of the Book (Hebrew עם הספר, Am HaSefer) is used in Judaism where it refers specifically to the Jewish people and the Torah. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/34 "2006-11-19T19:28:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I think that all three religions of the Book (did I do the capitalization correctly?) do have clauses about women dressing modestly, and the popularity of these religions probably has something to do with covering breasts. Almost every culture has rules about the people dressing modestly. The difference is what exactly is entailed by “modesty”. There may be cultures where nobody wears anything except for a string around the waist and a leaf hanging down in front, but in those cultures, if you went out in public without wearing your string-and-leaf, the reaction would be about the same as if you went out in our culture without pants on. The question isn’t where we get the requirement for modest dress, but how “breasts covered” came to be a part of “modest”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/35 "2006-11-19T19:45:24Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] If you mean to refute my saying that Jews also use the term, then why post a link to a cite whose first sentence is: [/QUOTE] No, I wasn’t refuting that but this: [QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] but religions of the Book to include all three, especially Christians, clunks historically and aesthetically, IMO [/QUOTE] Islam uses the term to include all three, and has historically done so. In any case, it seems to me to be a not unreasonable way to refer to the three major Abrahamic religions. Aesthetically, perhaps, you have a point, since it is not a customary term among Christians and means something different to Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/36 "2006-11-19T20:04:07Z")
Tits obscene ? C’mon! Blue tits, coal tits, marsh tits, crested tits, even bearded tits, all of’em can be seen _in natura_, even by children, and they are even shown on TV. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/37 "2006-11-19T20:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] My understanding is that the term [People of the Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book) is an Islamic one, and specifically includes Jews and Christians as well as Muslims. [/QUOTE] The terms “People of the Book” and “Religions of the Book” are also used among the Neo-pagan community. This is where I first heard them. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam appear more similar than different from many Pagans’ viewpoint: a single God, divine revelation transmitted through scripture, disdain of the erotic and the female, tendency towards authoritarianism, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/38 "2006-11-19T20:11:07Z")
“When” is kind of an unanswerable question, isn’t it? I mean, in some areas of the world, the answer is “never” or “not yet”. Going back into history doesn’t help, because people still did different things in different places or situations. Most historians think the Egyptian women were wearing transparent linen shifts of the “underboob” style at the same chronological time that Roman women were wearing seven thousand layers of stifling robes. “When” did \*Americans \*decide tits were obscene? Pretty much before the start of our country, no? Although nowadays it seems not so much breasts as nipples that are obscene. You can show all the tit you want on prime time television, as long as something covers the nipple and areole. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/39 "2006-11-19T20:44:11Z")
[QUOTE=Gymnopithys] Tits obscene ? C’mon! Blue tits, coal tits, marsh tits, crested tits, even bearded tits, all of’em can be seen _in natura_, even by children, and they are even shown on TV. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I’ve seen quite a few Great Tits in France, and on occasion Blue Tits in winter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/40 "2006-11-19T21:55:31Z")
[QUOTE=mr. jp] But they don’t normally wear a veil though, do they? [/QUOTE] No. I doubt they were even Muslim, although I suppose they could have been. I would suspect that they were more likely of one of the animist cultures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996.md?page=3)