# When did tits become obscene? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996 "2006-11-19T00:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/61 "2007-01-01T07:05:48Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] The Romans were more prudish about many things than were the earlier Etruscans. Their public baths featured nude mixed-sex bathing and the Romans were horrified by this at a time pre-Christianity. If civilization can be defined as cultures with cities (as it should), then very few civilizations anywhere at any time featured bare-breasted adult women. While it’s tempting to accuse people of the Book for this (what an ugly phrase), I can’t think of any good evidence that says that they did any more than emphasize what was already a cultural standard. [/QUOTE] I’ll need cites on that claim. Egyptian heiroglyphs showed women topless and sometimes naked except for a string around their waists (slaves, I think.) Guys ran around similarly undressed. They had cities. Here’s an actual Egyptian statue, she looks pretty durned nude to me. Of course, because their statues are nude doesn’t prove they ran around nude, but everything I’ve read suggested lower-class folks didn’t wear a hell of a lot. [http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/04/afe/ho\_30.8.93.htm](http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/04/afe/ho_30.8.93.htm) OK, here’s a direct quote from a historical site claiming women (and men) who were poor typically went nude in Egypt, as a matter of course: > [@](#): > > Nudity in ancient Egypt, when in its correct place, was not offensive or uncomfortable. Various jobs required that people went nude - fishermen and other manual labourers for instance - as did ones social status - the very poor tended to go nude. Female servant girls, dancers, acrobats and sacred ‘prostitutes’ went around totally or semi-nude for their jobs. The high class, though, seemed to love showing off their clothing and the latest fashions - the fashions changed much over time, but always the outfits appeared with jewellery… necklaces, rings, anklets, bracelets. Even the poor wore jewellery (though not of gold or precious gems), but this was not only decorative, but usually a good-luck symbol or protective amulet. Here’s the source: [http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/women\_egypt.html](http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/women_egypt.html) Minoans were famous for their toplessness, they had cities. The Greeks were big fans of the naked human form, though they were a little more naked guy-oriented than other cultures. I remember reading that contestants in the original Olympic games participated in the nude. They had cities. Romans not only had semi-pornographic, or outright pornographic frescoes on a lot of their walls, they also loved their phalli. Busts of big-deal Romans typically include a large phallus carved into the base of the phallus to show that the guy was a biggie in every respect. They also kept phalli by the doors of their homes to rub for “good luck.” Yeah, I’m gonna have to have all sort of evidence for the notion that civilization and “people of the Book” style sexual repression go hand in hand. I honestly think it’s a Christian/Islamic thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/62 "2007-01-01T07:19:41Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] Not really. Female apes feed their babies perfectly well without the hypertrophied breasts found in female humans. The large breasts of female humans, not found in most other primates, are primarily a sexual signal. They are much larger than they need to be just to feed babies. Some have theorized that they are intended to mimic buttocks, and first developed as a sexual stimulus when humans began to copulate mainly front-to-front instead of doggie-style. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t explain the udders on Hosteins which i’m sure are of very little interest to the bulls. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/63 "2007-01-01T07:43:30Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] That doesn’t explain the udders on Hosteins which i’m sure are of very little interest to the bulls. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if you’ve noticed lately, **Dutchman** , but bovines aren’t primates. And non-dairy cattle typically have much smaller udders than their milky sisters. And that cattle respond more strongly to non-visual markers (fr’ex, the scent in urine) than humans do. And a heifer doesn’t develop a bag until after she’s been bred, which is after she’s reached sexual maturity. The size of a Holstein’s bag is more an effect of years of domestication and selective breeding than anything that’s a sexual draw for the male of the species. In other words, udders aren’t eroticized by cattle. When mating, they sometimes don’t even go so far as to look each other in the eyes. It’s mostly a lot of butt sniffing and bawling at each other. There really aren’t enough parallels between mating among domesticated cattle and human/primate courtship to draw any conclusions about the eroticization of breast/udder size, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/64 "2007-01-01T13:24:59Z")
Finally found it :- [http://gutenberg.com/eBooks/BlackMask\_Online/cwshk.htm](http://gutenberg.com/eBooks/BlackMask_Online/cwshk.htm) > [@](#): > > I will close this portion of our sketch of English manners with an extract from the travels of Hentzner, who visited England in 1598, and saw the great queen go in state to chapel at Greenwich, and afterwards witnessed the laying of the table for her dinner. It was on Sunday. The queen was then in her sixty-fifth year, and “very majestic,” as she walked in the splendid procession of barons, earls, and knights of the garter: "her face, oblong, fair, but wrinkled; her eyes small, yet black and pleasant; her nose a little hooked; her lips narrow, and her teeth black (a defect the English seem subject to from their great use of sugar). She had in her ears two pearls with very rich drops; she wore false hair, and that red; upon her head she had a small crown, reported to be made of some of the gold of the celebrated Lunebourg table. **Her bosom was uncovered, as all the English ladies have it till they marry** ; and she had on a necklace of exceeding fine jewels; her hands were small, her fingers long, and her stature neither small nor low; her air was stately, her manner of speaking mild and obliging. Now, I am not sure how uncovered ‘uncovered’ means, but I long ago saw a variation of this, in which she (Elizabeth I) was covered in white paint, and her tits were totally uncovered. A rather unsavoury prospect. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/65 "2007-01-01T20:24:45Z")
“Her bosom was uncovered” = She had cleavage showing. Not nipples. ---
**Author:** ![42Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/6bbea6/32.png) [@42Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42Geek)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/66 "2007-01-01T22:14:19Z")
> [@](#): > > The large breasts of female humans, not found in most other primates, are primarily a sexual signal. They are much larger than they need to be just to feed babies. Some have theorized that they are intended to mimic buttocks, and first developed as a sexual stimulus when humans began to copulate mainly front-to-front instead of doggie-style. _shakes head_ Yes, they are sexual…but you know what? It’s probaly a Fredian thing . It’s hard to say exactly WHY they are shaped the way they are. Scientists still don’t know why ears are shaped the way they are. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/67 "2007-01-02T01:25:14Z")
[QUOTE=42Geek] _shakes head_ Yes, they are sexual…but you know what? It’s probaly a Fredian thing . It’s hard to say exactly WHY they are shaped the way they are. Scientists still don’t know why ears are shaped the way they are. [/QUOTE] Ah, that Fred. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/68 "2007-01-02T03:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=42Geek] _shakes head_ Yes, they are sexual…but you know what? It’s probaly a Fredian thing . It’s hard to say exactly WHY they are shaped the way they are. Scientists still don’t know why ears are shaped the way they are. [/QUOTE] _shakes head_ Despite their continued reference in popular culture (“Bob sure is anal about those TPS cover sheets, isn’t he?”) Freud’s collective theories of psychosexual development are practically universially discredited as being hopelessly wrong (particularly his theory that all neuroses have their origins in childhood sexual abuse, but that’s a whole 'nother issue). It’s almost certain that the evolutionary development of the oversize human breast is the result of selection for erogenous appeal, i.e. a woman with well-developed breasts is healthy and well-fed, a good prospect for motherhood. [QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] That doesn’t explain the udders on Hosteins which i’m sure are of very little interest to the bulls. [/QUOTE] The development of udders and other exaggerated or paedomorphic features is the result of artificial selection by human breeders. It has nothing to do with selection of ergonous characteristics. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/69 "2007-01-02T15:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=SkiDemon] Back in the twenties (that is the nineteen twenties) the flat chested look was POPULAR?!?! [/quote] Fashions do come and go. > [@](#): > > It wasn’t until Playboy made the breast over sexualized that they became very obscene. Playboy made them _oversexualized_? I think you’re giving too much credit to Hugh Hefner. Large breasts have been sexualized throughout human history. Take a look at Indian sculpture – not an itty-bitty in sight. ---
**Author:** ![Malienation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Malienation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malienation)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/70 "2007-01-02T20:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] The Greeks were big fans of the naked human form, though they were a little more naked guy-oriented than other cultures. I remember reading that contestants in the original Olympic games participated in the nude. They had cities. [/QUOTE] Right on all counts, although the Greek situation is a little odd. Although they revered the human male form, they held up _small_ penises as the ideal. :eek: They felt that a small penis was a sign of man’s superiority to other animals (a large penis signified an uncivilized person). This explains (and you always wondered about this…admit it!) why ancient Greek statues always have great bodies bodies but small penises. You saw some ancient Greek artwork where a man is depicted as having a huge penis? That was likely propaganda of some sort, meant to demean some person or culture (the military was a big fan of this). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/71 "2007-01-02T20:42:46Z")
**Malienation** , although heroic statues and portratits in Greek and Roman art did, indeed, have small penes, large penes weren’t only for making fun of other races (although it was used for that, as well). Greek herms and Greek and Roman statues of Priapus had abnormally large penes. Frequently Hermes or Mercury would, as well. The large penis was associated , arguably, with feertility, although I think a better case can be made for threat and aggression. But I’ve long suspected that there’s an element of fantasy in there as well – these figures, which _weren’t_ comic, allowed the Greaco-romans to have their proper ideal (statues wioth small penese) and improper yet appealing fantasies as well. Kinda like having a soberly dimensioned Miss America and a large-breasted Playboy Playmate in the same culture. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/72 "2007-01-02T21:13:30Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] The large penis was associated , arguably, with feertility [/QUOTE] Virility? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2007, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/73 "2007-01-02T23:54:04Z")
Some of the bikini tops I have seen are really just nipple covers-they are just small patches of cloth. I find it amusing that you can expose virtually the entire breast, but only the nipple is considered obscene. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![42Geek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/6bbea6/32.png) [@42Geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42Geek)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2007, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/74 "2007-01-03T01:45:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Playboy made them oversexualized? I think you’re giving too much credit to Hugh Hefner. Large breasts have been sexualized throughout human history. But not as sexualized as they are now. My mom’s a lactation counsultant,and she says that the number one objection to breastfeeding, is that the breasts are purely sexual. Yes, they may have been seen as sexual in other times, but they were ALSO utlitarian! I dunno…I think there could be something there with deep rooted childhood nerosises…the breasts are the source of food/comfort etc. Sort of like why cats “knead” when they are happy. Cats knead b/c that’s how they got milk from the mom as kittens. Anyone following my thinking here? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/75 "2007-01-03T16:49:11Z")
[QUOTE=42Geek] I dunno…I think there could be something there with deep rooted childhood nerosises…the breasts are the source of food/comfort etc. Sort of like why cats “knead” when they are happy. Cats knead b/c that’s how they got milk from the mom as kittens. Anyone following my thinking here? [/QUOTE] Not really. Can you expand on your line of thinking, please? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/76 "2007-01-03T17:14:27Z")
[QUOTE=42Geek] But not as sexualized as they are now. … Yes, they may have been seen as sexual in other times, but they were ALSO utlitarian! [/quote] Horsefeathers, as has been stated before, the nipples are utilitarian, but as you can see by looking at primates, there’s no utilitarian purpose to swollen breasts. They’re purely sexual organs. > [@](#): > > I dunno…I think there could be something there with deep rooted childhood nerosises…the breasts are the source of food/comfort etc. > Sort of like why cats “knead” when they are happy. Cats knead b/c that’s how they got milk from the mom as kittens. Anyone following my thinking here? You, sir, are talking through your hat. ---
**Author:** ![Malienation](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Malienation](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malienation)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/77 "2007-01-03T21:05:20Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] **Malienation** , although heroic statues and portratits in Greek and Roman art did, indeed, have small penes, large penes weren’t only for making fun of other races (although it was used for that, as well). Greek herms and Greek and Roman statues of Priapus had abnormally large penes. Frequently Hermes or Mercury would, as well. The large penis was associated , arguably, with feertility, although I think a better case can be made for threat and aggression. But I’ve long suspected that there’s an element of fantasy in there as well – these figures, which _weren’t_ comic, allowed the Greaco-romans to have their proper ideal (statues wioth small penese) and improper yet appealing fantasies as well. Kinda like having a soberly dimensioned Miss America and a large-breasted Playboy Playmate in the same culture. [/QUOTE] Well, yeah, they had statues with big penises, but as you mention those statues were of specific mythical persons. In spite of their mythic status, they weren’t held out to be the ideal. Also, you don’t differentiate between Greek and Roman culture, which were very different on this issue: Greeks idealized small penises, but Romans were another matter. They idealized big penises as paragons of strength and agression. Romans borrowed heavily from the Greeks in many ways, but not in this case. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2007, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/78 "2007-01-03T23:28:29Z")
I remember reading something a while ago in college, but I’ll be damned if I can find it anywhere. It was a psychological study in which men were shown non-arousing movies with interlaced frames of rounded objects, like baseballs, oranges, and upturned bowls. A significant portion of the men in the non-control group were aroused at the end of the movie, without explanation. The study concluded something about curviness being hardwired into the male brain. Obviously, there are lots of counter examples, but I think it did hit on something. I guess the question is: would men find breasts arousing if they weren’t told about them one way or another? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/79 "2007-01-05T07:19:06Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I’ve seen quite a few Great Tits in France, and on occasion Blue Tits in winter. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Any Great Tits in the Grand Tetons? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2007, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996/80 "2007-01-05T07:21:12Z")
I must say I find the notion that Lapon and Inuit females went bare-breasted before Christian times kind of strange. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-tits-become-obscene/380996.md?page=5)