# when did toy helicopters become feasible? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 21, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352 "2012-09-21T03:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![doubled](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@doubled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubled)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/1 "2012-09-21T03:19:19Z")
I just got an $18 toy remote controlled helicopter. It’s fabulous! Battery only lasts about 6-10 minutes, but those minutes are a joy. And so cheap! Only $18, which is staggering to me. When I was a kid, we had remote controlled cars but not helicopters. But why not? What exactly was the technology breakthrough that was necessary? Obviously not the remote control or the computer. Was the breakthrough the gyroscope? or the battery? Or something else? Exactly what technology do we have now that allows $18 helicopters that we didn’t have 20 years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/2 "2012-09-21T03:23:52Z")
I don’t know, but I have wondered the same thing. When I was a kid we didn’t have these things. I am assuming the battery was the major factor, how can you get batteries light but strong enough to carry the weight of the helicopter (which is usually 30 grams or so) but still powerful enough to let it fly for 5-10 minutes? Maybe it took years of advances in portable electronics like MP3 players, cell phones, laptops, etc. to develop batteries light and powerful enough. The fact that even now all we can get is 5 minutes or so of flight time tells me it was probably the battery (but I could be wrong). Syma makes the best model helicopters though. Looking around online, this website implies it was the batteries. Lithium Polymer. [http://www.xheli.com/lipobatteries.html](http://www.xheli.com/lipobatteries.html) > [@](#): > > Lithium Polymer (LiPo) batteries have really changed the micro rc helicopter scene. The weight savings of LiPo batteries is amazing, for example 3 NiCd 120 mAh cells (3.6V) weigh about 18g (0.62oz) a single cell LiPo 130 mAh cell (3.7V) weighs about 3.2g (0.11oz). That is over an 80% weight savings for about the same voltage and capacity. Below is a list of some of the more common LiPo cells being used in micro RC airplanes. This too. > **[RC Helicopters - How To Care For LiPo Batteries](https://hubpages.com/games-hobbies/RC-Helicopters-How-To-Care-For-LiPo-Batteries)** > > If there is one thing that has helped the hobby of flying RC helicopters explode to its current popularity it has to be the develoment of the LiPo battery, largely as the result of the drive to produce small light rechargeable power sources for... When I was a kid my dad had a gas powered helicopter, but no electric one. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/3 "2012-09-21T03:28:31Z")
I think most of these helicopters actually run on capacitors, not batteries. Batteries are somewhat better than they were in the days of Edison, but the advances made in capacitors in the past couple of decades are nothing short of amazing. When I was an undergrad, a 1 farad capacitor was the size of a garbage can; now they make them about the size of a D battery for a few bucks. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/4 "2012-09-21T03:29:14Z")
Yeah - I think mostly the battery. I had a toy helicopter 40+ years ago - but it was tethered to the power source (so had to go in a circle - but up and down and forward and backward just like a real helicopter). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/5 "2012-09-21T03:33:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think most of these helicopters actually run on capacitors, not batteries. Batteries are somewhat better than they were in the days of Edison, but the advances made in capacitors in the past couple of decades are nothing short of amazing. When I was an undergrad, a 1 farad capacitor was the size of a garbage can; now they make them about the size of a D battery for a few bucks. I’ve got a Syma, and Amazon sells [replacement or upgrade batteries for it](http://www.amazon.com/Upgrade-Helicopter-Helizone-RC-Firebird/dp/B005N28TNU/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1348198233&sr=1-2&keywords=syma+replacement+battery). So at least for that model, it seems it is a LiPo battery. Having said that, that sounds cool. Replacing the 150mah battery with a 240mah battery. I don’t know much about electronics, but that should add 3-5 or so minutes of flight time. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/6 "2012-09-21T03:51:01Z")
I got an electric RC helicopter in the early 90s. It’s no simple toy. It uses Ni-Cad batteries that weigh more than the rest of the helicopter. With a different motor and different gearing it could use lighter weight batteries. But as I said, it’s no toy, the 27" wooden rotor could chop your finger off. One of the earliest toy helicopters was a type of whirlygig. It used counter-rotating goose feather rotor spun by tension on a string by a flexible wooden bow. Long before those were first created, Maple trees were producing toy autogyros. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/7 "2012-09-21T03:57:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think most of these helicopters actually run on capacitors, not batteries. Batteries are somewhat better than they were in the days of Edison, but the advances made in capacitors in the past couple of decades are nothing short of amazing. When I was an undergrad, a 1 farad capacitor was the size of a garbage can; now they make them about the size of a D battery for a few bucks. Great Og, **Chronos**. In GQ? You might have at least made some attempt to check your facts. These helicopters run on LiPo batteries, without exception. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/8 "2012-09-21T03:58:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > When I was an undergrad, a 1 farad capacitor was the size of a garbage can; now they make them about the size of a D battery for a few bucks. Try [a third of a cm^3 and $0.40 in quantity ($0.96 for one)](http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nichicon/JUWT1105MCD/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsCu9HefNWqpvgl5rkxKcslMT0cewTV%252bsA%3d). Still, most small helis use li-ion or li-poly. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/9 "2012-09-21T04:01:28Z")
Batteries and motor, I would say. The batteries have been covered. As far as the motors go, rare-earth magnets have enabled very powerful DC motors. Also, the market for small vibration motors in cell phones has spilled out into other markets that couldn’t otherwise have funded the R&D for them; toy helis have been one beneficiary. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/10 "2012-09-21T04:08:53Z")
Are you sure that the motors used in the common toy helis are that special? My boy’s helicopter just uses pretty conventional little brushed motors. I don’t think they are anything special. I know the high performance helis use expensive high power motors but the basic $18 models don’t, I don’t think. I suspect the other factor is mass production of gyro chips that make the helis stable enough to fly easily. Previously, flying model helis required very high skill. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/11 "2012-09-21T04:27:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Are you sure that the motors used in the common toy helis are that special? My boy’s helicopter just uses pretty conventional little brushed motors. I don’t think they are anything special. I know the high performance helis use expensive high power motors but the basic $18 models don’t, I don’t think. The construction is pretty standard but the units I’ve seen tend to use very small motors with rare-earth permanent magnets instead of the larger ceramic kind. > [@](#): > > I suspect the other factor is mass production of gyro chips that make the helis stable enough to fly easily. Previously, flying model helis required very high skill. Last I checked, $18 helicopters don’t generally have gyros. However, there is a development I forgot about, which is a semi-passive stabilization system. The main rotor has a little bar which has a lever arrangement connecting to the main blades; this ends of having the net effect of stabilizing flight without any active control system. Look at [this](http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/image-files/infrared-micro-helicopter.jpg) picture for reference. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/12 "2012-09-21T05:11:15Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Last I checked, $18 helicopters don’t generally have gyros. However, there is a development I forgot about, which is a semi-passive stabilization system. The main rotor has a little bar which has a lever arrangement connecting to the main blades; this ends of having the net effect of stabilizing flight without any active control system. Look at [this](http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/image-files/infrared-micro-helicopter.jpg) picture for reference. This type of stabilizer has been around for a long time. It doesn’t serve the same purpose as a gyro to stabilize the tail. Model helicopters have had actual gyros for a while, but they are heavy and consume battery power, and would be impractical to use in tiny toy helicopters. They’re not really necessary though. The tiny amount of counter-torquing required is easy enough to control with gyro stabilization which only accounts for small changes in torque in the main rotor. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/13 "2012-09-21T05:41:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This type of stabilizer has been around for a long time. It doesn’t serve the same purpose as a gyro to stabilize the tail. Model helicopters have had actual gyros for a while, but they are heavy and consume battery power, and would be impractical to use in tiny toy helicopters. They’re not really necessary though. The tiny amount of counter-torquing required is easy enough to control with gyro stabilization which only accounts for small changes in torque in the main rotor. I believe real helicopters have (or had) those bars. > [@Folacin](#): > > Yeah - I think mostly the battery. I had a toy helicopter 40+ years ago - but it was tethered to the power source (so had to go in a circle - but up and down and forward and backward just like a real helicopter). Do you mean [one of these, a _ **Vertibird** _?!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertibird) I had one of those too, mid seventies. It was so cool my older brothers played with it as much as I did! I bought a mid-level one ($69) about four years ago from Radio Shack. Are they easy to fly now? Because that thing sure isn’t! It has no self-stabilizing functions. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/14 "2012-09-21T06:01:48Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I believe real helicopters have (or had) those bars. Yes, in various forms almost from the start. [Arthur Young](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_M._Young), who had made model helicopters as a boy, worked out the method of using a stabilizer bar and they were used on early Bell Helicopters. Very interesting guy. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/15 "2012-09-21T06:04:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Syma makes the best model helicopters though. Sounds like fun, but the ones I just looked at online have horizontal tail rotors. For some reason, that goes against my traditionalist sensibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/16 "2012-09-21T06:09:44Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Sounds like fun, but the ones I just looked at online have horizontal tail rotors. For some reason, that goes against my traditionalist sensibilities. My Radio Shack one has that. It’s just for direction, spinning one way lifts the tail and makes it go forward, the other lowers it for reverse. It has two, counter-rotating main rotors for torque cancellation. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/17 "2012-09-21T06:58:19Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Last I checked, $18 helicopters don’t generally have gyros. Are you sure? I think you will find they do. It is a tiny gyro chip that does all the work of keeping the heli from yawing without control input. My son’s has one, though admittedly it is probably a $40 heli. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/18 "2012-09-21T07:07:30Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Do you mean [one of these, a _ **Vertibird** _?!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertibird) I had one of those too, mid seventies. It was so cool my older brothers played with it as much as I did! I had one of those - amazing bit of engineering really - the controls linked to the motor unit via mechanical cables and the helicopter itself was just a plastic shell, with motive power delivered through a sheathed drive shaft. The notion of an untethered fully-electric flying machine seemed like utter fantasy at the time - and it was indeed because batteries were heavy for their capacity and motors were large and heavy for their power. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/19 "2012-09-21T07:23:20Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Are you sure? I think you will find they do. It is a tiny gyro chip that does all the work of keeping the heli from yawing without control input. My son’s has one, though admittedly it is probably a $40 heli. Well, I’m only going from what I observed maybe a year ago. I’ve played with MEMS gyros before and they are very cool, but AFAIK they are on the order of a dollar, and so along with the rest of the control system (microcontroller, etc.) they’re constitute a major fraction of a $18 heli. $40 gets you a lot more flexibility. To compare a bit, here are some links from my favorite Chinese junk importer: [http://dx.com/p/micro-pocket-r-c-helicopter-2ch-4608?item=4](http://dx.com/p/micro-pocket-r-c-helicopter-2ch-4608?item=4) $18.01, 2-channel. No claim about a gyroscope. [http://dx.com/p/rechargeable-4-channel-r-c-helicopter-w-ir-throttle-stick-controller-and-gyroscope-black-white-141023?item=6](http://dx.com/p/rechargeable-4-channel-r-c-helicopter-w-ir-throttle-stick-controller-and-gyroscope-black-white-141023?item=6) $42.30, 4-channel. Prominently advertises the gyroscope. So I won’t claim it’s impossible to find an $18 heli with a gyro, just that it seems that the price threshold is currently a bit higher than that. Maybe it’ll change soon. At any rate, I’ll add MEMS gyros to the list of things that have gotten massively cheaper and better due to the R&D from the phone industry. Selling billions of units has that effect on industries… ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2012, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352/20 "2012-09-21T07:26:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I got an electric RC helicopter in the early 90s. It’s no simple toy. It uses Ni-Cad batteries that weigh more than the rest of the helicopter. With a different motor and different gearing it could use lighter weight batteries. But as I said, it’s no toy, the 27" wooden rotor could chop your finger off. > > One of the earliest toy helicopters was a type of whirlygig. It used counter-rotating goose feather rotor spun by tension on a string by a flexible wooden bow. > > Long before those were first created, Maple trees were producing toy autogyros. This made me chuckle… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-toy-helicopters-become-feasible/635352.md?page=2)