# When did war stop being considered glorious and noble? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182 "2019-06-27T21:14:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/41 "2019-07-03T15:35:06Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > George Soros and Charles Koch have teamed up to jointly fund a Washington think tank to promote more diplomacy and less war in settling global disputes. > > [https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2019/06/30/soros-and-koch-brothers-team-end-forever-war-policy/WhyENwjhG0vfo9Um6Zl0JO/story.html](https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2019/06/30/soros-and-koch-brothers-team-end-forever-war-policy/WhyENwjhG0vfo9Um6Zl0JO/story.html) I’ve heard of “strange bedfellows,” but _wow…_ :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/42 "2019-07-03T16:09:54Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > I’ve heard of “strange bedfellows,” but _wow…_ :dubious: Not all libertarians resemble the _ultra right wing conservative_ labels they have been painted with. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/43 "2019-07-03T22:55:19Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > George Soros and Charles Koch have teamed up to jointly fund a Washington think tank to promote more diplomacy and less war in settling global disputes. > > [https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2019/06/30/soros-and-koch-brothers-team-end-forever-war-policy/WhyENwjhG0vfo9Um6Zl0JO/story.html](https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2019/06/30/soros-and-koch-brothers-team-end-forever-war-policy/WhyENwjhG0vfo9Um6Zl0JO/story.html) Yet during the pre-World War One period the colonial powers were extremely active diplomatically to try to avoid direct confrontation while ironing out differences over imperial ambitions. But this led to a system of alliances that were blamed for dragging Europe into war. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/44 "2019-07-04T00:38:57Z")
“When did war stop being considered glorious and noble?” For the individual, not long after you have been in one. I have no doubt that has been true since the dawn of time. TV and movies have allowed civilians the world over a chance to see some measure of it’s horrors which has made a significant impact to public opinion. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/45 "2019-07-04T13:20:00Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > For the individual, not long after you have been in one. I just finished reading Walter Lord’s _The Miracle of Dunkirk_. One of the final chapters mentions a wounded BEF soldier lying on a stretcher in the make-shift hospital worried he was going to be shot out of hand. When the first Wehrmacht squad arrived, “they look about as dirty and tired as the British did.” Fearfully he asked in halting German what they wished of him. “Marmalade,” was the answer at which point he relaxed. Nobody whose first concern was marmalade was going to be shooting anybody. They swapped rations and cigarettes, then pushed on after a few hours. The REMFs who took over were a lot less friendly. With all teeth vs. tail ratios being what they are, I think you have to have “seen the elephant” to get it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/46 "2019-07-04T15:52:45Z")
For many centuries war was viewed by the masses as elitist conflicts. The military was a drain on real resources. The elitists thought it was noble. With the advent of democracy, and it’s brother nationalism, much of the masses have a favorable if not heroic view of the military. Capitalism brought abundance that camouflages the military’s drain on real resources. The elitists still view war as noble, whether it is John Bolton or Samantha Power. They love war for different reasons, but they love it nonetheless. See Brian Williams fawning over the “beauty” of Trump’s bombing. A very sick elite has gained control of the US govt and influential institutions. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/47 "2019-07-05T11:09:16Z")
You can tell by that hats: [Napoleonic Wars](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&biw=1536&bih=722&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=-ysfXaH6AYPPtAbstLGQAw&q=napoleon+ic+war+soldier&oq=napoleon+ic+war+soldier&gs_l=img.3...1180171.1184857..1184974...4.0..1.428.2528.0j16j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i7i5i30j0i8i7i30j0i67j0.xq2TVxR9zUc) [American Revolutionary War](https://www.google.com/search?q=american+revolutionary+war+soldier&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijh82kzp3jAhUCBs0KHQrCARwQ_AUIECgB&biw=1536&bih=722) [American Civil War](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NyofXceQE8SStAaSxZL4DQ&q=american+civil+war+soldier&oq=american+civil+war+soldier&gs_l=img.3..0l2j0i5i30j0i8i30l7.66612.72149..74467...2.0..0.212.2457.0j19j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67j0i7i30j0i10j0i7i5i30j0i8i7i30j0i8i7i10i30.WrcQEduuHZ0) [World War I](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=gyofXcTGKIGxtAbG1634BQ&q=world+war+1+soldier&oq=world+war+1+soldier&gs_l=img.3..0l10.60277.63350..64110...0.0..0.138.1291.0j11......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30.j8S1qK2r850) [World War II](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=xSofXbeTAsiltQbymZ-oCQ&q=world+war+2+soldier&oq=world+war+2+soldier&gs_l=img.3..0l10.16042.16042..16571...0.0..0.131.131.0j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.ZjGVKWgI2xE) [Vietnam War](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=1iofXa6SONfKtQaSsrv4BQ&q=vietnam+war++soldier&oq=vietnam+war++soldier&gs_l=img.3..0l10.19126.21428..21935...0.0..0.124.1373.0j12......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30.W5UzqEzBqrU) [Gulf War](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=7iofXc2aB8eGtQb4i4qwDw&q=gulf+war+soldier&oq=gulf+war+soldier&gs_l=img.3..0j0i7i30l3j0i24.15152.16439..16701...0.0..0.124.912.0j8......0....1..gws-wiz-img.jHLbobwixJM) [War on Terror](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS853US853&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=OCsfXaGzKcGLtAaK7YPQBg&q=delta+force+operator&oq=delta+force+operator&gs_l=img.3..0j0i5i30l4j0i24l5.8256.24726..24865...3.0..0.127.3914.0j34......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i7i30j0i67j0i8i30.fTe8ZIHrq5Y) The transition happened over a couple hundred years, coinciding with the Industrial Revolution. Around the Napoleonic Wars, armies marched into battle dressed like…well…marching bands. Sure, some of the pomp and fanfare had practical uses, like identifying units, individual ranks and using instruments to issue tactical orders. But I’m sure a lot of it had to do with showing how big and important your empire was through how fancy your army is. Even during the relatively mismatched American Revolution, it was still important for the Americans to show they had a legitimate army with fancy hats and everything! During the Civil War, wearing a big fancy hat became less important than not having the head underneath it get blown off by a rifleman from 500 yards away. Big fancy hats tended to be reserved for the officers a bit further back from the line. While there were still some holdouts during WW I (mostly in Europe because…Europeans), that really marked the beginning of where soldier’s hats could no longer be “fancy”, they also had to serve as a form of protection. Nations and their war planners finally realized that industrialized warfare was no joke. The stakes were too high to have soldiers marching into battle in big, bombastic formations dressed like pompous asses for the “glory of the Empire!”. Since then, military combat attire has continued to evolve based on tactical and logistic practicality. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > For many centuries war was viewed by the masses as elitist conflicts. The military was a drain on real resources. The elitists thought it was noble. > > With the advent of democracy, and it’s brother nationalism, much of the masses have a favorable if not heroic view of the military. Capitalism brought abundance that camouflages the military’s drain on real resources. The elitists still view war as noble, whether it is John Bolton or Samantha Power. They love war for different reasons, but they love it nonetheless. See Brian Williams fawning over the “beauty” of Trump’s bombing. A very sick elite has gained control of the US govt and influential institutions. I suspect that throughout history, the public have always enjoyed hearing tales of their nation’s military victories in other lands and that military budgets have always been roughly a similar percentage of total spending. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/48 "2019-07-05T12:45:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I suspect that throughout history, the public have always enjoyed hearing tales of their nation’s military victories in other lands and that military budgets have always been roughly a similar percentage of total spending. When the army you are supposed to identify with is very literally taking food off your table, I would suspect that you do not think they are noble. The transition to nation-state probably did bring a small amount of military pride to the more dimwitted of the masses, but what really got the support of the masses was democracy. Soldiers get spontaneous public ovations now. The idea that the peasantry would worship military scoundrels of their day is not supported by the historical record. Even if military budgets are the same percentage as always, capitalism has created an abundance that can feed most people rather cheaply. Just because soldiers wear utilitarian hats, it doesn’t mean they are not viewed as noble. The modern military hat is either a symptom of or one of the causes of an American Puritan aesthetic that romanticizes utility. Farmers and factory workers are also some of the most romanticized occupations in American culture. No fancy hats there. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/49 "2019-07-05T13:24:45Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > While there were still some holdouts during WW I (mostly in Europe because…Europeans) [Ya think?](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/A_v_Mackensen_ca1915.jpg/220px-A_v_Mackensen_ca1915.jpg) That’s Generalfeldmarschall [August von Mackensen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_von_Mackensen), “the last Hussar.” Being 65 at the outbreak of WWI I’m sure he led from the rear. He did live long enough to see the fall of the Third Reich, much to his delight – he was a dedicated monarchist. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/50 "2019-07-05T17:46:41Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Soldiers get spontaneous public ovations now. The idea that the peasantry would worship military scoundrels of their day is not supported by the historical record. Really? Because the “historical record” of Rome, Sparta, Ancient Greece and other civilizations seems choc full o’ celebrations of various military adventures. Maybe not if your country is directly involved in the war and you have armies (yours or theirs) marching through your back yard or if your husband or sons didn’t come back from them. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/51 "2019-07-05T18:18:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Really? Because the “historical record” of Rome, Sparta, Ancient Greece and other civilizations seems choc full o’ celebrations of various military adventures. Maybe not if your country is directly involved in the war and you have armies (yours or theirs) marching through your back yard or if your husband or sons didn’t come back from them. When you read history for and by elites, there is definitely a pro-war slant. If a celebration is characterized by increased food and an end to forced support of the military, I’d be celebrating as well. Of course that doesn’t conflict with my analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182/52 "2019-07-05T20:40:53Z")
There was a lot of opposition to the Boer War, with comments about it being used for profit by the Chamberlain family. Plus the British use of concentration camps drew condemnation. > **[Opposition to the Second Boer War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Second_Boer_War)** > > Opposition to the Second Boer War occurred both within and outside of the British Empire. Among the British public, there was initially much support for the war, though it declined considerably as the conflict dragged on. Internationally, condemnation of Britain came from many sources, predominately left-wing and anti-imperialist ones. Inside Britain influential groups, especially based in the opposition Liberal Party formed immediately. They fought ineffectually against the British war policies,... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-war-stop-being-considered-glorious-and-noble/836182.md?page=2)