# When Did We Cease Having a Government That Had Fiscal Responsibility? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 30, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707 "2015-12-30T06:29:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/41 "2016-01-02T04:18:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Those democracies have mostly been around a pretty short time, actually. There are still a lot of people in Europe who lived under authoritarian governments. Britain is very old, obviously, but all the continental nations except for a couple small ones are new to democracy. France is a special case, since it’s long been democratic(off and on), but it’s most recent government only dates back to 1958, when Charles de Gaulle was given the power to rule by decree while a new constitution was written and new institutions were set up. > > Don’t kid yourself. Except for Britain and maybe NOW France and Scandinavia, democracy is fragile in Europe. So, how long does it take before the “majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury”? 300 years? 400? Give us a number. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/42 "2016-01-02T04:22:32Z")
In Greece’s case, oh, about 30. Italy’s in pretty bad shape too, about another recession away from a crisis, so for them it was about 70. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/43 "2016-01-02T04:40:14Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > In Greece’s case, oh, about 30. Italy’s in pretty bad shape too, about another recession away from a crisis, so for them it was about 70. So, every democracy older than 70 years is living on borrowed time? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/44 "2016-01-02T04:42:46Z")
Not all. Depends on whether they are willing to live within their means. Canada and Sweden are examples of countries that faced serious problems and got them under control. Other countries look for others to blame and demand bailouts from their creditors. I fear that will be our path. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/45 "2016-01-02T05:02:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Bad premise. It is not fiscally responsible to balance your budget in the middle of a recession. Or a war. The goal of government should be the maximum good of its citizens, not zero deficit. If you go by Keynes’ premise, you are correct BUT during non-recession time you are supposed to run a surplus viz. save money to spend during recessions. By that criteria the answer to the OP is when we stopped saving during flush times which would have been after [the recession of 1837](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/04/15/135423586/when-the-u-s-paid-off-the-entire-national-debt-and-why-it-didnt-last). The Republican fiscal conservative in me wants to say that the answer is when Democrats bastardized the theories of Keynes and Marriner Eccles into the current theory that the job of the government is to provide most of the economic stimulus - so much so that in 2008 an influx of over a trillion dollars that George W. Bush & the Democrat-controlled Congress approved (yes - both sides are responsible) barely made a dent. But the real answer is St. Ronald Reagan ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/46 "2016-01-02T05:28:28Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > The Tytler “quote” is again a mis-attribution. The earliest known version [appeared in](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alexander_Fraser_Tytler) 1951! > > The quote, regardless of age or source, is peculiarly relevant to recent events. Why? No-one has so far provided an example of this hypothesis actually occurring: of a democracy spending beyond its means, going under a dictatorship, and then becoming a monarchy. Until we have an actual example to consider, it’s simply ideological fluff. > [@adaher](#): > > In Greece’s case, oh, about 30. Italy’s in pretty bad shape too, about another recession away from a crisis, so for them it was about 70. But neither of them had gone under a dictatorship as a result of spending beyond their means. In fact, the current government of Greece had been using regular appeals to the people for guidance on how to respond to the situation: two elections in the past three years, plus a referendum. Doesn’t look anything like the hypothesis in the quote. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/47 "2016-01-02T05:33:18Z")
Greece is still being bailed out. Let’s see how well they do once the money truly runs out or if things get worse. The rise of Syriza does not bode well for Greece. Remember that the Weimar Republic actually lasted 16 years despite huge economic problems. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/48 "2016-01-02T05:43:02Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Not all. Depends on whether they are willing to live within their means. Canada and Sweden are examples of countries that faced serious problems and got them under control. Other countries look for others to blame and demand bailouts from their creditors. I fear that will be our path. So it can go either way; then the quote that Clothahump posted is worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/49 "2016-01-02T05:55:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Remember that the Weimar Republic actually lasted 16 years despite huge economic problems. Yes it did : economic problems caused by going bankrupt fighting a world war, paying reparations for said war, and losing territory which was of major economic value: none of which matches the quoted hypothesis. Nor did the Nazi dictatorship turn into a monarchy, as predicted by the quote. Still looking for an actual example which fits the hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/50 "2016-01-02T06:03:34Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > So it can go either way; then the quote that Clothahump posted is worthless. No. Financial problems have historically been a major factor in a democracy falling. Doesn’t mean all will fall, or that all fall because of financial problems, but it is a big factor. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/51 "2016-01-02T06:10:52Z")
Still looking for an example of a democracy failing because the voters were giving themselves to many government benefits, triggering a dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/52 "2016-01-02T06:21:02Z")
Too soon to tell for sure. Greece looks to be well on their way, so we’ll see what happens there. Their financial crisis only began a few years ago and the EU has kept them from hitting rock bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/53 "2016-01-02T06:25:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > No. Financial problems have historically been a major factor in a democracy falling. Doesn’t mean all will fall, or that all fall because of financial problems, but it is a big factor. Uh, read the quote again. > [@](#): > > After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses… It pretty much says that all will fall. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/54 "2016-01-02T12:21:42Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > I was reading a book about the building of the SS United States-the last ocean liner built in the USA. Because (even in the 1950s) passenger liners were often unprofitable, the US Government provided a subsidy to defer the operating cost. This subsidy came from two things: anticipated use (as a troop carrier), in time of war, and a post office subsidy (in return for carrying the mail). At the time that the ship was being planned, President Truman was balking at the amount of the proposed subsidy (all of $200,000/year!) We now have a Federal Government that flings money around like water-deficits of hundreds of billions are the order of the day. what made the Government such a spendthrift? And why don’t we elect presidents like Truman? The government has always been big spender and and big government!! The conservatives on big police force, big prison complex, wars and locking people up for any thing. The liberals on education, public transportation, collage, roads and highways so on. Only the pre dates before say FDR when the US was closer to libertarian society. With the FDR and after the FDR you have big government. ---
**Author:** ![sweat209](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@sweat209](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweat209)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/55 "2016-01-02T12:26:36Z")
If you want small taxes and small government than that go back to 18 century model. That privatize all schools, collage, university, roads, highways, have tolls everywhere on the road, education, NASA and the police so on. When it comes to pollution and the environment have capitalism deal with it than say socialist government we have today. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/56 "2016-01-02T13:36:29Z")
> [@sweat209](#): > > If you want small taxes and small government than that go back to 18 century model. > > That privatize all schools, collage, university, roads, highways, have tolls everywhere on the road, education, NASA and the police so on. > > When it comes to pollution and the environment have capitalism deal with it than say socialist government we have today. Agree completely…the “invisible hand” of the market works much better than the corrupt government we have. take energy-we have a wonderful system that delivers high quality gasoline to us, at a very low cost-imagine if the US Government supplied gasoline? It would be $200/gallon. As Dr. Milton Friedman once observed “if you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there would be a shortage of sand”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/57 "2016-01-02T14:02:18Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Agree completely…the “invisible hand” of the market works much better than the corrupt government we have. Then why do we need a capital gains tax rate that is lower than the regular income tax rate? If the market is so good at stimulating investment with dividends and capital gains, why does the government need to provide a special tax break to reward investment? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/58 "2016-01-02T14:25:37Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Agree completely…the “invisible hand” of the market works much better than the corrupt government we have. take energy-we have a wonderful system that delivers high quality gasoline to us, at a very low cost-imagine if the US Government supplied gasoline? It would be $200/gallon. As Dr. Milton Friedman once observed “if you put the Federal Government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in five years there would be a shortage of sand”. Oh, Bullshit. You and **sweat209** need to educate yourselves. Read Upton Sinclair’s _The Jungle_ for starters. Then read about the huge environmental messes that were made (even _with_ regulation) by Dow, Motorola, W.R. Grace, and Rockwell (for starters). The idea that corporations would treat the environment and their neighbors carefully in an unregulated system is completely dissociated from reality. Corporations do what they can to maximize profits. If that means dumping thier waste into your drinking water, that’s what they will do. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/59 "2016-01-02T14:37:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then why do we need a capital gains tax rate that is lower than the regular income tax rate? If the market is so good at stimulating investment with dividends and capital gains, why does the government need to provide a special tax break to reward investment? Almost all governments tax capital gains lower than earned income, due to the investment being riskier than work. If you pay a high rate on investment profits you’re better off just putting money under a mattress. If you lose, you lose, but if you win, the government wins and you still lose. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707/60 "2016-01-02T16:02:05Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > I was reading a book about the building of the SS United States-the last ocean liner built in the USA. Because (even in the 1950s) passenger liners were often unprofitable, the US Government provided a subsidy to defer the operating cost. This subsidy came from two things: anticipated use (as a troop carrier), in time of war, and a post office subsidy (in return for carrying the mail). At the time that the ship was being planned, President Truman was balking at the amount of the proposed subsidy (all of $200,000/year!) We now have a Federal Government that flings money around like water-deficits of hundreds of billions are the order of the day. what made the Government such a spendthrift? And why don’t we elect presidents like Truman? We possibly never did… My daughter has gotten into the Hamilton musical in a big way. Including reading the biography is based on. One of the features of Hamilton’s life is that as first Secretary of the Treasury he tried to bring fiscal responsibility to government when not all our Founding Fathers were so inclined. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-cease-having-a-government-that-had-fiscal-responsibility/741707.md?page=4)