# When did we first try to be vegeterians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 15, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448 "2003-05-15T15:04:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDeath_the_Mad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/1 "2003-05-15T15:04:11Z")
So when did the first vegiterians show-up? Why did they just eat vegtables? I’m assuming it was probably for religeous reasons, was it? And a second question, when did himans discover vegtables were good for us? MtM ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/2 "2003-05-15T15:11:45Z")
It is probably the other way round- the primate ancestors of humanity were omnivores, robably descended from frugivorous monkey-like tree dwellers- at some point the benefits of pack-hunting became apparent, and meat came on the diet a long time after plant material. Gorillas, our fairly close relatives, are herbivores. Chimps, on the other hand, eat fruit, insects, and meat, which they hunt in bands. ---
**Author:** ![McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDeath_the_Mad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/3 "2003-05-15T15:57:11Z")
Okay, then let me rephrase, after man added meat to their diet, when did we start turning into vegetarians? MtM ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/4 "2003-05-15T15:57:53Z")
Early (and current) humans probably ate everything they could catch–fruit, nuts, roots, some tender leaves, grubs, fish, shellfish, birds, small animals, larger animals other carnivores had killed… etc. So probably, the first vegetarians (i.e., eating NO meat, rather than eating any vegetables at all, as your OP implies…) were those humans who were unlucky enough to not catch/scavenge any animals to eat. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/5 "2003-05-15T16:04:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, then let me rephrase, after man added meat to their diet, when did we start turning into vegetarians? > > MtM Ah. No one knows. Certain Hindus/Buddhists are the earliest examples that come to my mind … though all cultures, to some extent, have various food prohibitions/phobias; so it’s possible it could have come up before then. On a small scale, aesceticism seems to be a pretty common occasional phenomenon throughout the world, so probably various individuals have been forswearing meat and other luxurious foods for spiritual reasons since time immemorial. ---
**Author:** ![McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a3d4f5/32.png) [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDeath_the_Mad)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/6 "2003-05-15T16:06:11Z")
Okay toadspittle, that’s was I was kind of going for. I can live with that. MtM ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/7 "2003-05-15T16:15:59Z")
**Benjamin Franklin** became a vegetarian when he was 16 after reading a book by Thomas Tryon (1634 – 1703). But then a few years later he realized fried fish smelled _good…_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/8 "2003-05-15T16:17:15Z")
Also check out this site: [http://www.veg.ca/newsletr/mayjun96/history.html](http://www.veg.ca/newsletr/mayjun96/history.html) ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/9 "2003-05-15T16:54:55Z")
Hmm. That’s a pretty slanted page. Most of it–esp. all of the early history–seems pretty dubious. But I think it gives an excellent capsule history of modern vegetarianism, from this sentence on: > [@](#): > > From the 17th century, a time of radical ideas, vegetarianism began to grow steadily in England. … ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/10 "2003-05-15T17:22:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > **Hmm. That’s a pretty slanted page.** Yea, I agree. But I suspect it’s hard to find an objective historical account of vegetarianism. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/11 "2003-05-15T17:33:34Z")
When I saw the OP I was going to mention Pythagoras, although I now see that the site given by **Crafter\_Man** beats me to it. So I’ll just have to add that Pythagoras denounced the [fava bean](http://www.s-t.com/daily/05-96/05-29-96/c01li096.htm) for reasons uncertain. But this quote from **eburacum45** is just plain wrong: > [@](#): > > It is probably the other way round- the primate ancestors of humanity were omnivores, robably descended from frugivorous monkey-like tree dwellers- at some point the benefits of pack-hunting became apparent, and meat came on the diet a long time after plant material. Omnivore means eating both meats and vegetables. Both our primate ancestors and current primates are omnivores. [Looking at Ape Diets–Myths, Realities, and Rationalizations](http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-2a.shtml) > [@](#): > > A comparison of humans vs. allegedly “vegetarian” anthropoid apes is frequently a part of comparative anatomy/physiology “proofs” that assert humans are natural vegetarians. (“Anthropoid” means the most human-like apes in the “great apes” family, which includes the chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan.) However, as knowledge of the actual diet of wild primates/anthropoid apes (from field observation studies) increases, the reality that most primates/apes include some animal foods (even if only insects) in their normal, natural diet is becoming better known. As a result of this, the myth of the “vegetarian ape” is slowly slipping away. [Pack-hunting also does play a part.](http://www.hs.sugiyama-u.ac.jp/~ihobe/abstract/pan.html) Meat in the form of insects undoubtedly appears very early in our ancestry. But, again, by definition it is part of all omnivores diets, not a later addition. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/12 "2003-05-15T17:38:20Z")
My sister is a vegatarian. She believes (I think she read it in a book) that she is ‘decended from vegatarian farmers’ based on her blood type or some such non-sense. This is patently ridiculous, but is this main stream though among vegatarians? Where did they get this idea? Is there any proof that an entire society, not just religious aescetics, ever were totally vegatarian? Just curious. -XT ---
**Author:** ![greyseal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@greyseal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greyseal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/13 "2003-05-15T19:55:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xtisme \* > \*\*My sister is a vegatarian. She believes (I think she read it in a book) that she is ‘decended from vegatarian farmers’ based on her blood type or some such non-sense. This is patently ridiculous, but is this main stream though among vegatarians? Where did they get this idea? Is there any proof that an entire society, not just religious aescetics, ever were totally vegatarian? > \*\* Most assuredly not. Although I only know approximately ten vegetarians well (myself included), they all fall into about three general categories: [ul] [li]Ethical (moral) vegetarians[/li][li]“Meat is kinda gross” vegetarians[/li][li]Healthy vegetarians[/li][/ul] The last item often includes people who eat some poultry or fish. But I have yet to meet a vegetarian who espoused the “humans are meant to eat only vegetables” line or any other such garbage. We generally recognize that it is somewhat unnatural, but is relatively easily accomodated in today’s society with the right diet. And, I even live in L.A.! ---
**Author:** ![greyseal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@greyseal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greyseal)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/14 "2003-05-15T20:01:10Z")
To clarify, I was specifically responding to this: > [@](#): > > This is patently ridiculous, but is this main stream though among vegatarians? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/15 "2003-05-15T20:19:57Z")
Ah, I thought as much. Anyone know where this notion that blood type dictates that your ancestors were vegatarians comes from? Or is she just making this stuff up? 🙂 I’ve never heard of archeological data showing anything about ‘vegatarian farms’ living in some kind of utopia…and the blood type thing flys in the face of everything I’ve heard of about anthropology and biology (though I’m no expert to be sure). It sounds a bit like astrology to me… I have the same blood type that she does and I like my steak rare… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/16 "2003-05-15T20:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > This is patently ridiculous, but is this main stream though among vegatarians? I’ve heard it once or twice, but it’s far from mainstream. Most veggies, like myself, don’t eat meat because they don’t want to (for ethical or health or whatever reasons), not because we’ve cocked up some phony-baloney biological theories. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/17 "2003-05-15T21:56:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I have yet to meet a vegetarian who espoused the “humans are meant to eat only vegetables” line or any other such garbage. I suggest you talk to a Hare Krisna or any of the similar Hindu sects. They all beleive precisely that. Granted they use dairy products, but that still makes them vegetarians. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/18 "2003-05-15T22:53:08Z")
I’m sorry, **Exapno Mapcase,** but I stand by what I said- there were omnivorous primates in our ancestry, but they were descended from frugivorous dryopithecines in the early Miocene- more than fifteen million years ago. Neither Australopithecine species, gracile or robust, were adapted to eat meat well either. However like the Orangutan today incidental insect eating eggs and and maybe small animals was probably a dietary supplement for these species. However, as you say, since that time we have become true omnivores, and this is one of the main reasons for the success of humanity- the omnivorous diet allows our species to live in a wide range of environments, fron the Arctic to the Outback. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/19 "2003-05-15T23:26:24Z")
> [@](#): > > they were descended from frugivorous dryopithecines in the early Miocene Has there ever been a purely frugivorous mammal species? I’m having a hard time thinking of any extant examples. Although a few browsers and grazers are more or less herbivorous, it’s hard to imagaine a species that eats small parcels of high energy like fruit never figuring to eat eggs, insects etc. True, apes aren’t well adapted to eating meat, but neither are pigs yet they will eat as much meat as they can get. Similarly bears aren’t well adpated to eating vegetables for that matter, and pandas are horribly adapted to eating bamboo. That’s one of those things about omnivores, they tend to reflect the dietary habits of the most commmon ancestor. As they become more reliant on one food type they become adapted to that food, but while they remain omnivorous they could never be described as ‘well adpated’ to eating either plants or animals. It wouldn’t work. However the Australopithecines retained the canines and incisors of their omnivorous relatives. Whiel the robust forms were almost certainly predominantly herbivorous it’s probable they remained just as omnivorous as the frugivorous monkeys are today. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448/20 "2003-05-16T00:02:12Z")
This may just be a question of misplaced emphasis. I read your original sentence as saying that we were omnivores who then added meat to the diet. This may be true if you consider pack hunting and scavenging totally different from eating insects, eggs and small creatures, but I feel it is very misleading. Beyond that, I do have to agree that it’s true that when you go far enough back our ancestors were frugivorous. But what does that mean? From my earlier Ape Diet link: > [@](#): > > Frugivores normally eat some leaves and/or animal matter in addition to their primary food of fruit. … > > As mentioned above, extreme diets are rare in nature. Instead, there is a spectrum of diets, and drawing lines or boundaries in the multi-dimensional dietary spectrum to distinguish between, say, frugivores and faunivores [faunivore = meat-eater] is a non-trivial problem. The reality that primates may frequently switch dietary categories makes the situation even more complicated. It was probably not a large step from eating some insects in a diet largely consisting of fruit to becoming a true omnivore. One more quote: > [@](#): > > Regarding consumption of animal foods by primates, Hamilton and Busse [Hamilton III WJ, Busse CD (1978) “Primate carnivory and its significance to human diets.” Bioscience, vol. 28, pp. 761-766.] note: > > > [@](#): > > > > Many primate species once considered herbivorous are now known to expand the animal-matter portion of their diet to high levels when it is possible to do so… > > > > Insect food is the predominant animal matter resource for primates. Insects are eaten by all extant apes, i.e., chimpanzees (e.g., Lawick-Goodall 1968), orang-utans (Gladikas-Brindamour1), gorillas (Fossey2), gibbons (Chivers 1972, R.L. Tilson3), and the siamang (Chivers 1972). The amount of insect matter in most primate diets is small, but may expand to more than 90% of the diet when insects are abundant and easily captured… I’m on **Blake’s** side on this. Our omnivore status goes back to whenever we split off and started all those branches that led to homo sapiens. Our more recent ancestors certainly were omnivores on a par with current apes, probably actively scrounged animal matter, and possibly actively hunted. Meat was a part of our diets from a very early time. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-first-try-to-be-vegeterians/175448.md?page=2)