# When Did We Get So Hateful? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 12, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664 "2018-02-12T02:13:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/181 "2018-02-14T21:55:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Because he’s seeking to poke holes in my argument that the way returning vets were treated is emblematic of the hatred with which the left in this country has treated issues and people it disagrees with since the sixties. The ‘left’ wasn’t exactly treated with kid gloves at any time during the 20th century. Immediately before the 1960s we had McCarthyism instilling fear in Americans and costing people their livelihoods and sometimes their lives. Plus the way civil rights workers were treated - certainly no better than the name-calling and alleged spitting on associated with Vietnam veterans. Most likely worse, since people asserting their rights were murdered by the rightwingers. Neither ‘side’ seems to have been blameless as far as acts of ‘hatred’ is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![proudfootz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9e5f3/32.png) [@proudfootz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/proudfootz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/182 "2018-02-14T22:05:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Maybe. We learned about My Lai because one man, a chopper pilot, was courageous enough, aware enough of the career consequences, to report it in a way that could not be whitewashed as a defeat of a Viet Cong unit in a firefight. To believe it was an isolated incident requires believing that somehow the bulk of the crazies in the Army all wound up in Calley’s unit. Please don’t forget that he was acting under Medina’s orders (Medina denied it), derived from Koster’s orders. > > My memories of the period all stem from wondering what the hell we were doing there, what the purpose of this thing was, why the body count (on both sides) mattered and was acceptable, and what victory was being defined as. I think it’s worth remembering that American wars had always been much shorter, victorious, and seen publicly as our being in the right. This was the first time such basic assumptions were doubted on a widespread scale, and since the political structure wasn’t doing its job responsibly, people had to actually learn how to protest. Not everyone got it right the first time, obviously. > > The vets I’ve known have very often not wanted to discuss what they saw and did, ever. Not because they’re afraid of getting spat upon, but because they have trouble living with the memories. While the majority of America’s military might have tried to do their time honorably, My Lai was not an ‘isolated incident’ - **the whole war was a crime**. > [@](#): > > How long does it take the US government to release documentation about atrocities in which US military forces killed unarmed civilians, women and children? In the case of Vietnam, it’s taken almost 40 years. The 1968 My Lai massacre became public in 1969, but officials at the time said My Lai was an “isolated incident”–the same thing we hear about atrocities today in Iraq and elsewhere. After that, GIs described dozens of other My Lai-style atrocities in which they said they had taken part. Those GIs were called liars and traitors, and no one was ever punished for any of the events they described. > > Now the Los Angeles Times has published a page one story, “Vietnam Horrors: Darkest Yet,” based on official government documents detailing 320 incidents of Vietnam war atrocities that were confirmed by army investigators. The documentation, according to the Times, comes from “a once-secret archive assembled by a Pentagon task force in the early 1970s.” > > [https://www.thenation.com/article/beyond-my-lai-new-revelations-vietnam-atrocities/](https://www.thenation.com/article/beyond-my-lai-new-revelations-vietnam-atrocities/) One consequence of the government’s ability to keep these war crimes secret for _generations_ is that there will always be some folks who are inclined to believe government propaganda about the ‘pure motives’ of our government. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/183 "2018-02-14T22:16:10Z")
Side note: I meant to insert “bolding mine” into my post, but missed the edit window. My apologies for the change in the quote box without indicating I had done so. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/184 "2018-02-14T22:20:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There was a study linked to elsewhere in other threads about how well conservatives, moderates, and liberals, could predict what other groups thought about various issues, and why they would say they thought as they did. What they found was that conservatives and moderates were much better at both predicting, and explaining, what liberals thought and why they thought it. Liberals were much worse at both, when it came to understanding the other side(s). I ran across an interesting take on that > [@"\[brainstorm](#): > > ([https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/liberals-conservatives-and-the-haidt-results/46113](https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/brainstorm/liberals-conservatives-and-the-haidt-results/46113))"]… in politics we ended up with more polarized but still dynamic debates, controversies, struggles, elections, etc., but in areas of culture, the liberal side won. It was a firm and sound defeat for conservatism in public schools, the art world, entertainment media, higher education, journalism, and every other sphere of cultural activity. > > The triumph was so pronounced and widespread that the natural thing happened. People who occupied those spheres came to believe that their ideological stance was the natural and right and just one.… simply took the liberal position as ordinary and proper, and at the same time regarded those remnants of conservatism as feeble holdovers of a benighted time.… (whose) remnants would disappear.… It explains, too, the results of the study … Why bother to pay attention to an outlook that is so discredited, obsolete, and outrageous … that nobody with any respectability holds? So “Liberals” have difficulty understanding Right-Wing attitudes because they seem to be based on bullshit. Trying to understand what smells like bullshit takes more effort than it is worth, so the Left has a hard time empathizing with the right. This, I think, tends to seep over into areas where the Left could understand the right but are reluctant to wade through the sewer-swamp of nonsense in order to do it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/185 "2018-02-14T22:28:48Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I ran across an interesting take on that > So “Liberals” have difficulty understanding Right-Wing attitudes because they seem to be based on bullshit. Trying to understand what smells like bullshit takes more effort than it is worth, so the Left has a hard time empathizing with the right. This, I think, tends to seep over into areas where the Left could understand the right but are reluctant to wade through the sewer-swamp of nonsense in order to do it. Good point. It’s like flat earthers bragging that they understand the round earth theory better than round earthers understand the flat earth theory. Well, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/186 "2018-02-14T22:34:14Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > So, you would not want us to judge the armed forces by the actions of a small number of soldiers, but you have no problem judging an entire half of the population of your country by the actions of a few protestors? I believe the radioactive hatred present among a small, but very vocal number of Americans today, got it start during the turmoil of the 1960s and 1970s. Some of this hatred was engendered among white supremacists who were reacting against the desegregation and general Civil Rights movement. And even more of this hate was engendered among but thousands (not “a few”) of anti-war protesters who resorted to violence and lawlessness in many forms, and disrupting the functioning of entire university campuses over several years, and seemed not to care whom they hurt. Several new generations have arrived since those times, and the younger ones seem not to know the history of the U.S. - even recent history. I don’t regard them in the same light in which I regard the Boomers (my own generation), some of whom perpetrated the violence, or sympathized or colluded with it. And who continue to view these actions as legitimate, even defensible. I would emphasize that thousands - not a few - were involved with the near-anarchy of the late 1960s and early 1970s. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/187 "2018-02-14T22:42:03Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > I would emphasize that thousands - not a few - were involved with the near-anarchy of the late 1960s and early 1970s. “Near-anarchy”? The US was on the verge of anarchy? No. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/188 "2018-02-14T22:47:48Z")
I would not say that “thousands” were involved in “near anarchy” but that thousands, nay, millions wanted to see the war end sooner rather than later. Most went the “peaceful protest” or electoral route. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/189 "2018-02-14T22:58:11Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Maybe. We learned about My Lai because one man, a chopper pilot, was courageous enough, aware enough of the career consequences, to report it in a way that could not be whitewashed as a defeat of a Viet Cong unit in a firefight. To believe it was an isolated incident requires believing that somehow the bulk of the crazies in the Army all wound up in Calley’s unit. Please don’t forget that he was acting under Medina’s orders (Medina denied it), derived from Koster’s orders. > > My memories of the period all stem from wondering what the hell we were doing there, what the purpose of this thing was, why the body count (on both sides) mattered and was acceptable, and what victory was being defined as. I think it’s worth remembering that American wars had always been much shorter, victorious, and seen publicly as our being in the right. This was the first time such basic assumptions were doubted on a widespread scale, and since the political structure wasn’t doing its job responsibly, people had to actually learn how to protest. Not everyone got it right the first time, obviously. > > The vets I’ve known have very often not wanted to discuss what they saw and did, ever. Not because they’re afraid of getting spat upon, but because they have trouble living with the memories. “People had to actually learn how to protest. Not everyone got it right the first time, obviously.” People like SDS, the Weather Underground, the Yippies knew perfectly well how they wanted to protest . . . some of them wrote manuals on the subject - and that’s precisely what they did. These Americans and the Americans who allowed themselves to be drawn into their activities were living during the era of the non-violent protests organized by the Rev. Dr. King, whose activities and those of his followers had made notable inroads into the entrenched racism in U.S. society. And the older among these Americans would have been familiar with the non-violent approach to protest developed by Ghandi. An approach so successful that the then-powerful British empire was at last driven from India. This episode was an epic game-changer in that era, still much-discussed in the 1950s and the 1960s. Had these anti-war protesters wished to protest non-violently, they had a domestic exemplar and an international exemplar, both of great fame, to imitate. But then, a soul full of rage and hate probably wouldn’t be inclined to teach itself the ways of non-violent protest. Protests that take the form of invading buildings, holding hostages, setting off bombs, setting fires, general rioting, screaming obscenities, and making obscene gestures . . . these would seem to be much more the enraged soul’s cup of tea. And so it was. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/190 "2018-02-14T23:00:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, he served 3 1/2 years of house arrest. This was at Ft Benning, but it wasn’t in “the brig”. Should have faced the firing squad. I’ll never understand why he didn’t. Those poor people. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/191 "2018-02-14T23:07:29Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > Should have faced the firing squad. > > I’ll never understand why he didn’t. > > Those poor people. Why? He did a shitty thing. Shooting him makes it less of a shitty thing? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/192 "2018-02-14T23:12:08Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > “People had to actually learn how to protest. Not everyone got it right the first time, obviously.” > > People like SDS, the Weather Underground, the Yippies knew perfectly well how they wanted to protest . . . some of them wrote manuals on the subject - and that’s precisely what they did. > > These Americans and the Americans who allowed themselves to be drawn into their activities were living during the era of the non-violent protests organized by the Rev. Dr. King, whose activities and those of his followers had made notable inroads into the entrenched racism in U.S. society. And the older among these Americans would have been familiar with the non-violent approach to protest developed by Ghandi. An approach so successful that the then-powerful British empire was at last driven from India. This episode was an epic game-changer in that era, still much-discussed in the 1950s and the 1960s. > > Had these anti-war protesters wished to protest non-violently, they had a domestic exemplar and an international exemplar, both of great fame, to imitate. > > But then, a soul full of rage and hate probably wouldn’t be inclined to teach itself the ways of non-violent protest. Protests that take the form of invading buildings, holding hostages, setting off bombs, setting fires, general rioting, screaming obscenities, and making obscene gestures . . . these would seem to be much more the enraged soul’s cup of tea. > > And so it was. Once again, you are blaming the millions of americans who did no such thing for the actions of a few. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/193 "2018-02-14T23:12:34Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > I ran across an interesting take on that > So “Liberals” have difficulty understanding Right-Wing attitudes because they seem to be based on bullshit. Trying to understand what smells like bullshit takes more effort than it is worth, so the Left has a hard time empathizing with the right. This, I think, tends to seep over into areas where the Left could understand the right but are reluctant to wade through the sewer-swamp of nonsense in order to do it. This observation would seem to demonize the Right, the very thing that everyone in this country seems to agree is a part of what continues to drive hate and division. And I sense that a _tu quoque_ is coming, so I’ll head it off by saying: it’s one thing to point out objectionable words and actions on the part of one’s adversary; it’s another to describe that the entire belief system of one’s adversary as “bullshit” and a “sewer-swamp of nonsense.” I don’t believe that any reasonable American could dismiss the thought of George Weigel, for example, as a “sewer-swamp of nonsense.” (If he had read some of his writings, of course. And if he had the intellectual chops and wattage to understand them.) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/194 "2018-02-14T23:17:08Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > This observation would seem to demonize the Right, the very thing that everyone in this country seems to agree is a part of what continues to drive hate and division. Not really. It just points out that much of society has grown, has moved on. Being a bigot is not considered to be okay anymore. We make the mistake of thinking that everyone is on board with that. > [@](#): > > And I sense that a _tu quoque_ is coming, so I’ll head it off by saying: it’s one thing to point out objectionable words and actions on the part of one’s adversary; it’s another to describe that the entire belief system of one’s adversary as “bullshit” and a “sewer-swamp of nonsense.” > > I don’t believe that any reasonable American could dismiss the thought of George Weigel, for example, as a “sewer-swamp of nonsense.” > > (If he had read some of his writings, of course. > > And if he had the intellectual chops and wattage to understand them.) Are you saying that the writings of Weigel are not to be questioned? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/195 "2018-02-14T23:17:24Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Once again, you are blaming the millions of americans who did no such thing for the actions of a few. I don’t know where you got the idea I’m blaming “millions of Americans.” For what? The actual numbers I don’t know, but it had to be thousands and thousands who were involved in the rioting, the campus takeovers, the general chaos of those times. And, apparently, judging from the spirit of the times (which I lived through) tens of thousands more agreed with them, or were at least somewhat sympathetic toward them. Which “millions of Americans” am I blaming? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/196 "2018-02-14T23:18:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > “Near-anarchy”? The US was on the verge of anarchy? > > No. Oh really. How old are you? (Approximately, not exactly) And in what part of the country did you live in those days? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/197 "2018-02-14T23:23:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Why? He did a shitty thing. Shooting him makes it less of a shitty thing? He committed war crimes. Do you think that the Allies shouldn’t have taken the trouble to execute Nazi war criminals? After all, shooting them wouldn’t reduce their crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/198 "2018-02-14T23:34:08Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not really. It just points out that much of society has grown, has moved on. Being a bigot is not considered to be okay anymore. > > We make the mistake of thinking that everyone is on board with that. > > Are you saying that the writings of Weigel are not to be questioned? There are two dictionary definitions of **bigot**. 1. A bigot is one so attached to his own opinions and prejudices that he cannot accord respect or even tolerance to those with views differing from his own. 2. One who is so strongly partial to his or her own group (e.g. religion, race, ethnicity, gender, political party, etc.) that he is intolerant of those who differ. Simply holding views which are not politically correct and acting on them where lawful, doesn’t mean the person is a _bigot_. It’s simply being an un-PC person. There are surely also un-PC persons who are bigots. And bigots who are also very, very un-PC. However, there are also uber-PC folks who are as much bigots in their way as Sheriff Buford T. Justice was in his. And there are PC folks who are not particularly bigoted at all. As well as un-PC folks who aren’t, either. (I wish I could draw a Venn diagram on here. But I can’t.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/199 "2018-02-14T23:38:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Not really. It just points out that much of society has grown, has moved on. Being a bigot is not considered to be okay anymore. > > We make the mistake of thinking that everyone is on board with that. > Are you saying that the writings of Weigel are not to be questioned? No. Are **you** saying “The views of George Weigel and people who think as he does, are sewer swamps of nonsense.” ? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2018, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664/200 "2018-02-14T23:38:59Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > He committed war crimes. > > Do you think that the Allies shouldn’t have taken the trouble to execute Nazi war criminals? > > After all, shooting them wouldn’t reduce their crimes. No, because capital punishment solves nothing. It helps no victims (being dead themselves), has very little deterrent effect (if even any) and validates barbarism. There is nothing to be gained by it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-we-get-so-hateful/808664.md?page=11)