# When did you stop beating your wife? Challenging loaded questions in FQ **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [December 29, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291 "2022-12-29T17:22:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/41 "2022-12-30T15:57:47Z")
The OP contains none of the above. And if it did, you can ask the mods to move non-FQ threads elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/42 "2022-12-30T16:07:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > It’s an FQ thread; there was no “should” But part of the OP question was: > [@Any evidence that teaching kids about healthy boundaries and consent to physical contact reduces abuse?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-that-teaching-kids-about-healthy-boundaries-and-consent-to-physical-contact-reduces-abuse/977225/25): > > Is this particular child rearing strategy having any positive effects? so it seems to me that pointing out that there could be positive effects in other areas than childhood sexual abuse directly addresses that part of the question. In addition, I’m still asking whether saying that answers to a FQ in the form in which it was asked would be misleading is forbidden; though I don’t expect there’s been time for an answer to that. > [@Riemann](#): > > The OP was loaded with the assumption that parenting strategies in general _should_ only be based on empirical evidence; and specifically that teaching bodily autonomy and consent _should_ be justified by empirical studies of abuse outcomes. I’m actually objecting on different grounds: that even if empirical studies of abuse outcomes exist and show no benefit, they’d be insufficient to show that the strategy doesn’t work, as it would also be necessary to do studies of whether the strategy worked in other areas. And the OP did specifically ask about the strategy working. But I think that what you’re saying does also address the issue, because it points out an additional area in which the strategy could be working, whether or not it has an effect on whether the child is sexually abused or commits sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/43 "2022-12-30T16:10:35Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The OP contains none of the above. The relevant passages have already been quoted above. I’m obviously not the only one to interpret them in this way. And if there’s any ambiguity, I think it was removed by OP’s subsequent reporting of every post that _questioned_ what we saw as an incorrect embedded premise. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/44 "2022-12-30T16:26:51Z")
On thing to also consider here, is that for many people a request for empirical study evidence about [whatever] will be viewed as inherently a challenge to the validity of [whatever], not “just a question”. No need to word it as a challenge, they’ll see it as baked in. The adversarial mindset has been drilled in deep. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/45 "2022-12-30T16:28:51Z")
FQ threads are not Google searches. It’s easy to present ostensibly factual questions in a manner that advances a line of reasoning. That may be unintentional or it may be to advance an agenda. Either way, it surely cannot be board policy that controversial non-factual assumptions embedded in a FQ OP must stand unchallenged because to _challenge_ them would be non-factual. It seems to me that if an FQ OP raises challenges in this manner, there are two ways this should go. If a controversial assumption is loaded into an OP it could be discussed for a brief while within FQ. If that leads to OP _acknowledging_ that the assumption may be wrong for reasons other posters have stated, then the thread could continue in FQ, with subsequent factual answers now in appropriate non-misleading context. Or, if OP is not willing to recognize that premises embedded in the OP are non-factual and controversial, the thread should be moved out of FQ. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/46 "2022-12-30T16:47:38Z")
If someone started a thread in FQ with the OP _“In the Bible, Ezekiel had three wives. Which wife did he marry last?”_ Presumably a discussion of what the Bible says or doesn’t say about the chronology of Ezekiel’s weddings would ensue. An answer either could or could not be provided based on the contents of the Bible, or inferences made from passages not directly mentioning Ezekiel. One could argue the OP has an implicit assumption that the Bible is a factual document, and it could be questioned whether or not there ever even was an Ezekiel to begin with, but I gather the mods are saying the OP in the context of an FQ question is intended to be discussed on its face value, not whether the premise of the question was at fault to begin with. Elsewise, every FQ question, for instance, about what the Bible says or doesn’t say would inevitably devolve into a debate about the validity of the basis of Christianity where there’s nothing in the OP suggesting that’s their intent. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/47 "2022-12-30T16:55:49Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > …it surely cannot be board policy that controversial non-factual assumptions embedded in a FQ OP must stand unchallenged because to _challenge_ them would be non-factual. Agreed. > [@Cardigan](#): > > “In the Bible, Ezekiel had three wives. Which wife did he marry last?” If Ezekiel, in the Bible at least, really did have three wives (frankly, I have no clue–just taking it as an example, supposing that’s what’s in the Bible), a better representation of the issue under discussion here might be “In the Bible, Ezekiel had three wives. Why did he deny the existence of his fourth wife? Factual answers only please.” ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/48 "2022-12-30T16:59:13Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The premise that it seems to me that you’re assuming is that the sole purpose of this strategy is to prevent child sexual abuse. This is wron > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The premise that it seems to me that you’re assuming is that the sole purpose of this strategy is to prevent child sexual abuse. I can tell you the person I learned about the strategy from was teaching her child this way to prevent or mitigate sexual abuse. She spends every work day protecting kids who’ve been sexually abused. She wants to protect her kid the best she can. This is one of the things she does. It’s not the only thing but it’s one of them. I asked about other motivations. Much of what I’ve read about this states or implies either that it is to mitigate the risk of sexual abuse. If other people are motivated by other things, great, share those things with me. Then let me know whether it works to accomplish those things. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If the children were being taught that while they don’t have to hug anybody they don’t want to they’re entitled to hug anyone else even if that person doesn’t want, then of course that wouldn’t be so. But as I understand it this isn’t what’s being taught – what’s being taught is that both/all partners to the hug should be willing. I think different people may be teaching different things and different kids might be learning different things. One of the prompts for this story was my friend sharing an anecdote that was, for her, simultaneously funny and heartbreaking. She was with her kid at the doctor who had to get a vaccination, The kid was scared and refused to cooperate, saying “you don’t have my permission to touch me.” That is exactly what the child was told to say to perserve bodily autonomy. And my friend was simultaneously proud and crushed because the kid really didn’t have that autonomy. The kid needed the shot. What was the lesson to come out of that? > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But what is negated is any assumption that, if the strategy doesn’t work to prevent childhood sexual abuse, it therefore doesn’t work at all and shouldn’t be used. I asked about and am curious about other effects. I would like more than speculation about that. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > If you’re asking what the goals are, isn’t it appropriate for people to answer that the goals are much wider than only preventing childhood sexual abuse, and that therefore studies considering those wider goals would be needed before the strategy could be declared not to be working? Perfect. Point me to those studies. > [@Riemann](#): > > There obviously was. The OP was loaded with the assumption that parenting strategies in general _should_ only be based on empirical evidence; and specifically that teaching bodily autonomy and consent _should_ be justified by empirical studies of abuse outcomes. No, I was asking if this particular parenting strategy was based on empirical evidence. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > so it seems to me that pointing out that there could be positive effects in other areas than childhood sexual abuse directly addresses that part of the question. It was FQ. Point to something other than “I think this is a positive effect.” Or, only marginally better, “this person in the news thinks there is a positive effect but offers no evidence.” > [@JRDelirious](#): > > On thing to also consider here, is that for many people a request for empirical study evidence about [whatever] will be viewed as inherently a challenge to the validity of [whatever], not “just a question”. No need to word it as a challenge, they’ll see it as baked in. The adversarial mindset has been drilled in deep. If we can’t ask for evidence in FQ any more, the usefulness of this place to me is dropping dramatically and my interest in contributing to it is dropping faster. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/49 "2022-12-30T17:06:36Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But part of the OP question was: Actual OP: > [@Any evidence that teaching kids about healthy boundaries and consent to physical contact reduces abuse?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/any-evidence-that-teaching-kids-about-healthy-boundaries-and-consent-to-physical-contact-reduces-abuse/977225/1): > > Has any positive effects? > > This is FQ. This is not a thread for your guesses about whether it works or is beneficial. I would like citations to studies supported by some science that this works (or doesn’t) So no, “pointing out that there could be positive effects” is exactly what wasn’t asked for. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/50 "2022-12-30T17:21:50Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The relevant passages have already been quoted above. And they contain no “should”. Some people advocate a method to protect children. That’s a fact. Lots of child rearing advice is not backed by science. Also true. That doesn’t make it wrong. And asking whether the research exists suggests nothing about whether a method should be followed. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/51 "2022-12-30T17:31:59Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > No, I was asking if this particular parenting strategy was based on empirical evidence. Then why did you seek to shut down any responses that sought to answer that question in an informative manner that did not grant the premise that it _should_ only be based on empirical evidence, or that questioned whether it was reasonable for practical reasons to _expect_ such evidence? And why include commentary expressing your own opinions about how other parenting strategies were shitty because they were not based on empirical evidence? The way your OP read to me (and others) was clear: parenting strategies _should_ be based on empirical evidence, in this case specifically abuse statistics; and if nobody can cite any such empirical evidence in this thread, we are invited to draw the conclusion that this trendy parenting strategy was just pulled out of the air and has no justification. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/52 "2022-12-30T17:53:19Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > If we can’t ask for evidence in FQ any more, the usefulness of this place to me is dropping dramatically and my interest in contributing to it is dropping faster. Then ask for factual information in a neutral manner. Don’t load your request with our own opinions and assumptions and then attempt to shut down any challenge to those assumptions “because this is FQ”. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/53 "2022-12-30T17:57:48Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Don’t load your request with our own opinions and assumptions and then attempt to shut down any challenge to those assumptions “because this is FQ”. Don’t tell others what they can and cannot post. You are not a moderator. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/54 "2022-12-30T18:03:25Z")
Come on, I am obviously expressing my _opinion_ about what a poster should do. Do I really need to make that disclaimer every time I say anything in the forum where we discuss moderation? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/55 "2022-12-30T18:27:34Z")
It sounds like the only response that would have fit in with the constraints by the OP in a factual manner would have been, “No.” or no responses at all. But, really the problem comes from the fact that the OP asked a question that didn’t have an FQ answer, and it really should have been in IMHO, especially as _they_ put their opinions into it into the first place. They did not merely ask for studies, they also said why they thought that these studies are important, and drew some preliminary conclusions about what they could imply. IMHO, mods should have closed the thread, and asked if the OP would like it reopened in IMHO, as it did _not_ belong in FQ, as there was no possible useful FQ answer to give, especially given the opinions already expressed by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/56 "2022-12-30T19:12:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It sounds like the only response that would have fit in with the constraints by the OP in a factual manner would have been, “No.” or no responses at all. No. The OP was looking for scientific cites. And ONLY for scientific cites. While the OP did give opinions on the premise, it was also made very clear that this particular thread was not for discussion of that premise. A scientific cite that disproved the premise was acceptable according to the OP. Simply arguing the premise (either for or against) was completely off-topic. If you disagree with the premise, tough noogies. Feel free to start your own thread to discuss it. Or you can Pit it it you’d like. But you don’t get to change the topic just because you don’t like it. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > IMHO, mods should have closed the thread, and asked if the OP would like it reopened in IMHO, as it did _not_ belong in FQ The OP clearly did not want to discuss opinions about the premise. That leaves only the factual question that was asked. Moving the thread to IMHO changes the topic completely. While the OP does not get to control a thread that they start, they do get to choose the topic. While several people disagreed with the premise, not one of those people posted anything even close to a scientific cite to disprove the premise. Instead, they just argued with the premise, which was specifically called out as off-topic in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/57 "2022-12-30T19:22:05Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > Much of what I’ve read about this states or implies either that it is to mitigate the risk of sexual abuse. If other people are motivated by other things, great, share those things with me. Then let me know whether it works to accomplish those things. Seems to me that people, me included, shared what those things are. This isn’t that thread; this is ATMB. It appears to me that the question being raised in ATMB is whether and in what fashion we could properly, in FQ, either “share those things” and/or discuss what it would take to show “whether it works to accomplish those things”. Since you’ve stated in the original thread that you won’t be returning there, I don’t see any sense in trying to discuss it with you further there. And I’m not going to try to do so in ATMB. > [@Ruken](#): > > So no, “pointing out that there could be positive effects” is exactly what wasn’t asked for. What was asked for was whether the technique worked. Worked in general, not worked for one specific part of its purpose. If somebody posted “I want to know whether the strategy of vaccination against covid-19 works. Find for me studies showing whether or not vaccination against covid-19 always prevents infection”, would it be out of line to say that although there are no studies saying that such vaccination always prevents infection the strategy of getting vaccinated nevertheless works? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/58 "2022-12-30T19:24:03Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > No. The OP was looking for scientific cites. And ONLY for scientific cites. While the OP did give opinions on the premise, it was also made very clear that this particular thread was not for discussion of that premise. > > A scientific cite that disproved the premise was acceptable according to the OP. > > Simply arguing the premise (either for or against) was completely off-topic. You are still demonstrating that you just don’t get the issue at all, because you are still using the word “premise” to refer to the wrong thing. The OP asked for evidence in support of a parenting strategy. The parenting strategy _itself_ is not the “premise” that is in dispute. The unjustified premise was the assumption embedded in the OP that this parenting strategy _should_ be justified by empirical evidence, specifically evidence on rates of abuse. The way OP was framed, if no cites were forthcoming it obviously invited the reader to draw the conclusion that this parenting strategy had no valid foundation. It was important to challenge this premise, because that invited conclusion is not warranted. The absence of evidence may or may not be evidence of something, and understanding that requires context. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/59 "2022-12-30T19:25:58Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > No. The OP was looking for scientific cites. And ONLY for scientific cites. While the OP did give opinions on the premise, it was also made very clear that this particular thread was not for discussion of that premise. Right they were looking for a scientific cite that _could not_ exist. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > While the OP did give opinions on the premise, it was also made very clear that this particular thread was not for discussion of that premise. Where I’m from, that’s called poisoning the well. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > A scientific cite that disproved the premise was acceptable according to the OP. That would also be something that does not exist. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Feel free to start your own thread to discuss it. Or you can Pit it it you’d like. But you don’t get to change the topic just because you don’t like it. And you can be a bit less personal on this, as you can clearly see, I did none of what you are implying I did by saying I shouldn’t. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > The OP clearly did not want to discuss opinions about the premise. Which they made clear by expressing _their_ opinions on it. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > That leaves only the factual question that was asked. Which had no answer. No way to be answered. There was no single thing that anyone could have said that would have satisfied the OP. > [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > While several people disagreed with the premise, not one of those people posted anything even close to a scientific cite to disprove the premise. Instead, they just argued with the premise, which was specifically called out as off-topic in the OP. This is untrue, as it was also explained _why_ such a study would be impractical, unethical, and any results would be inconclusive. That, too, was rejected by the OP. It was a bad OP for FQ, and posters tried to do the best with it they could have. It was their fault, I suppose, for trying to be helpful, when what the OP deserved was to be completely unanswered. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2022, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291/60 "2022-12-30T19:42:18Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It was a bad OP for FQ, and posters tried to do the best with it they could have. It was their fault, I suppose, for trying to be helpful, when what the OP deserved was to be completely unanswered. Agree completely with this. That’s why I left the thread alone when I saw it, after that first modnote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife-challenging-loaded-questions-in-fq/977291.md?page=4)