# When did zombies change from magic to science? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 19, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833 "2019-02-19T15:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/21 "2019-02-19T18:19:20Z")
One of the best zombie films I’ve seen in recent years was the British _[The Girl With All The Gifts](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4547056/reference)_, set in a world a decade after the zombie apocalypse dealing with second generation zombies. Also highly recommended was the Scottish Christmas Zombie Musical [_Anna and the Apocalypse_](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6433880/reference). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/22 "2019-02-19T20:41:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > George Romero and John Russo pretty much created the modern idea of zombies with _Night of the Living Dead_ in 1968. Plan 9 had (Alien) Science Zombies in '59. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/23 "2019-02-19T21:03:24Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > “Solanum” is actually the genus that includes potatoes, tomatoes, and eggplants, among other foodstuffs, so be very careful in your vegetable garden… I never said it wasn’t a stupid virus name, only that it’s the one Brooks uses in his books. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/24 "2019-02-19T21:38:29Z")
I always liked the keep-it-simple explanation offered up by the Sheriff in NOTLD: _“Yeah, they’re dead.They’re all messed up.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/25 "2019-02-19T22:48:30Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > “Solanum” is actually the genus that includes potatoes, tomatoes, and eggplants, among other foodstuffs, so be very careful in your vegetable garden… In my experience plants have fairly adept defenses against zombies, though keeping a lawnmower handy is a worthwhile precaution. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/26 "2019-02-19T22:57:11Z")
Another early instance of scientific zombies was Niven’s “Night on Mispec Moor”. Interestingly, he also has his technological equivalent of “healing magic” be effective against them (because they kill the fungal infection which causes the animation). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/27 "2019-02-19T23:16:07Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > George Romero claimed in various interviews that he was inspired by Richard Matheson’s novel _I Am Legend_ to make his zombies. so if you’re claiming Romero as your source, Romero’s source was a 1954 novel, which was actually trying to give a science-fiction gloss to _Vampires_, not Zombies. > > Matheson’s book was first adapted to film in 1964 as _The Last Man on Earth_, starring Vincent Price in an unusual-for-him role. Matheson wrote the first draft of the screenplay, but wasn’t happy with the way the film ultimately veered from his work, and used a pseudonym. Nevertheless, the film predates _Night of the Living Dead_ by four years. > > Despite Romero’s claim, however, I think he was much more heavily influenced by a movie, rather than a book. **Invisible Invaders** , a 1959 film, featured invaders from space who took over dead human bodies and attacked the living. They didn’t eat people, but they had the same dark-circles-under-the-eyes look as Romero’s zombies, the same stiff walk, and they went about dressed in suits (as they were buried in, or as they wore when they died), and the whole look is similar to Romero’s zombies. Plus, the “zombies” WERE in this case revived by a “satellite in outer space” > > Of course, you could make many of the same arguments about Ed Wood’s **Plan Nine from Outer Space** 9which was originally to be called “Grave Robbers from Outer Space”), which also came out in 1959, but Invisible Invaders had infinitely higher production values, not to mention the presence of John Carradine (who, like Lugosi, had also played Dracula, another famous revenant) and other stars of note. So I think "scientific’ zombies date back at least to 1959. You could also cite _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_ (which was released in 1956) as an inspiration. But I think Romero and Russo came up with something distinct from these previous works. Previous monsters like aliens or vampires had been sentient. The Walking Dead were mindless; reanimated corpses that were driven solely by their hunger. And while that lack of intelligence might actually make them less of a threat, it made them seem more frightening. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/28 "2019-02-20T00:18:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You could also cite _Invasion of the Body Snatchers_ (which was released in 1956) as an inspiration. > > But I think Romero and Russo came up with something distinct from these previous works. Previous monsters like aliens or vampires had been sentient. The Walking Dead were mindless; reanimated corpses that were driven solely by their hunger. And while that lack of intelligence might actually make them less of a threat, it made them seem more frightening. Nah – \*Invasion of the Body Snatchers isn’t really all that close. The “taken over” people look and act like the originals. Romero didn’t invent the Zombie trope – the shambling, mindless zombies had been around for years (and many movies). What Romero added was making the zombies _carnivorous_ – that was what was new. No zombies before him were – they just creeped people out. Even the things in _Invisible Invaders_ and _Plan Nine_ weren’t trying to eat you. The only thing lacking was the desire to eat Brains. That came from Dan O’Bannon’s _Return of the Living Dead_ some twenty years later. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/29 "2019-02-20T10:17:33Z")
Some random observations: For a scientific explanation of zombies, check out Lucius Shepard’s wonderful novel \*Green Eyes[/]. Preston and Child’s _Cemetery Dance_ also uses a zombie created through a scientific process. Lovecraft’s “In the Vault” is a straight-up ghost story, though I must admit it’s pretty good. A few years ago, I played the sheriff in the Monroe County (I) Civic Theatre’s radio play “Night of the Living Dead.” It was really fun. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/30 "2019-02-20T11:27:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another early instance of scientific zombies was Niven’s “Night on Mispec Moor”. Interestingly, he also has his technological equivalent of “healing magic” be effective against them (because they kill the fungal infection which causes the animation). That’s one of the 5e changes I don’t like. I want my healing spells to harm the undead, dang it. I think science makes for a weaker premise than magic. It’s much easier to bring up other problems with zombies if there’s a scientific explanation. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/31 "2019-02-20T13:30:46Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I think science makes for a weaker premise than magic. It’s much easier to bring up other problems with zombies if there’s a scientific explanation. I’ve always thought it was a pretty thin line, personally. The “science” behind zombies is so loosey-goosey, even by horror movie standards, that it might as well be magic. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/32 "2019-02-20T14:42:28Z")
Science can work, we have actual zombie ants running around and i guess deer now too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/33 "2019-02-20T15:52:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **astorian** : > > That’s one of the 5e changes I don’t like. I want my healing spells to harm the undead, dang it. Though when Mispec Moor zombies (called “yellow musk creepers”) got imported into 3rd edition, even then they weren’t vulnerable to healing spells, because they were classified as “plant”, not as “undead”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/34 "2019-02-20T16:18:27Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > I’ve always thought it was a pretty thin line, personally. The “science” behind zombies is so loosey-goosey, even by horror movie standards, that it might as well be magic. It may be a thin line, but it’s definitely an important one as far as world-building goes. See , we know science exists, so if some new, albeit far-fetched, science creates zombies, we can accept it as an isolated case - it’s our world, only with zombies. Whereas if the zombies are created by magic, that means magic exists in the world, which means that besides zombies you’re probably also going to get witches and magic swords and prophecies and whatnot. It changes the fundamental nature of the story. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/35 "2019-02-20T16:19:33Z")
Zombie myths started in Haiti. There’s research that a strong drug is made and used to simulate death. Combined with strong beliefs and pressure from their society the practice can flourish. > **[The Secrets of Haiti’s Living Dead | Harvard Magazine](https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2017/10/are-zombies-real)** > >  A Harvard botanist investigates mystic potions, voodoo rites, and the making of zombies. > [@](#): > > The powder, which Davis keeps in a small vial, looks like dry black dirt. It contains parts of toads, sea worms, lizards, tarantulas, and human bones. (To obtain the last ingredient, he and Pierre unearthed a child’s grave on a nocturnal trip to the cemetery.) The poison is rubbed into the victim’s skin. Within hours he begins to feel nauseated and has difficulty breathing. A pins-and-needles sensation afflicts his arms and legs, then progresses to the whole body. The subject becomes paralyzed; his lips turn blue for lack of oxygen. Quickly—sometimes within six hours—his metabolism is lowered to a level almost indistinguishable from death. > As Davis discovered, making the poison is an inexact science. Ingredients varied in the five samples he eventually acquired, although the active agents were always the same. And the poison came with no guarantee. Davis speculates that sometimes instead of merely paralyzing the victim, the compound kills him. Sometimes the victim suffocates in the coffin before he can be resurrected. But clearly the potion works well enough often enough to make zombies more than a figment of Haitian imagination. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/36 "2019-02-20T16:38:05Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Zombie myths started in Haiti. There’s research that a strong drug is made and used to simulate death. Combined with strong beliefs and pressure from their society the practice can flourish. > > [The Secrets of Haiti’s Living Dead | Harvard Magazine](https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2017/10/are-zombies-real) Ah, you’re opening a big can o’ worms (or zombies) with Wade Davis. Fascinating stuff, and I’d love to believe it, but it’s not without its problems and controversy. Still, in any discussion of Zombies and Science, I suppose it needs to be brought up. But Davis is irrelevant to whether _cinematic_ zombies are “scientific.” Unless you’re discussing the movie **The Serpent and the Rainbow** , that is. > **[Wade Davis (anthropologist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade_Davis_(anthropologist))** > > Edmund Wade Davis CM (born December 14, 1953) is a Canadian cultural anthropologist, ethnobotanist, author, and photographer. > Davis came to prominence with his 1985 best-selling book The Serpent and the Rainbow about the zombies of Haiti. He is professor of anthropology and the BC Leadership Chair in Cultures and Ecosystems at Risk at the University of British Columbia. > Davis was born in West Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. > He holds degrees in anthropology and biology and received his Ph.... ---
**Author:** ![Quercus\_alba](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quercus_alba/32/4061_2.png) [@Quercus\_alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus_alba)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/37 "2019-02-20T16:56:34Z")
Advances in virology and neuroscience? You might find this book amusing… [https://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Autopsies-Secret-Notebooks-Apocalypse/dp/0446564656](https://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Autopsies-Secret-Notebooks-Apocalypse/dp/0446564656) ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/38 "2019-02-20T16:58:11Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#): > > I’ve always thought it was a pretty thin line, personally. The “science” behind zombies is so loosey-goosey, even by horror movie standards, that it might as well be magic. There’s really three divisions: magic zombies (Weekend at Bernie’s II), scientifically-explained zombies (28 Days Later), and unexplained zombies (the majority of modern zombies). The last category generally works best for the vibe of zombie flicks – if you don’t know the origin, you can’t find a “cure” and that really reinforces the creeping horror of zombies. Giving an explicit supernatural origin undermines the horror as well, since it opens a big can of “wait, magic exists?” worms that take you out of the world a bit. Most of the serious zombie fans I know like them because they’re monsters that usually exist in a world that’s otherwise grounded and realistic and recognizable. So movies often give a sort of nod towards science, like “it may be a virus…” on the radio, but, yeah, trying to give scientific details is usually going to break down pretty quick. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/39 "2019-02-20T17:07:52Z")
> [@Quercus\_alba](#): > > Advances in virology and neuroscience? > > You might find this book amusing… > [https://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Autopsies-Secret-Notebooks-Apocalypse/dp/0446564656](https://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Autopsies-Secret-Notebooks-Apocalypse/dp/0446564656) Nifty! I may have to buy that. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833/40 "2019-02-20T17:20:19Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Ah, you’re opening a big can o’ worms (or zombies) with Wade Davis. Fascinating stuff, and I’d love to believe it, but it’s not without its problems and controversy. > > Still, in any discussion of Zombies and Science, I suppose it needs to be brought up. But Davis is irrelevant to whether _cinematic_ zombies are “scientific.” Unless you’re discussing the movie **The Serpent and the Rainbow** , that is. > > [Wade Davis (anthropologist) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade_Davis_(anthropologist)) I vaguely remember some of the earliest Zombie movies were set in Haiti. Cheap B movies made years before Night of the Living Dead. I haven’t read much about Davis. A mild toxin is an interesting theory. A lack of oxygen in the coffin could leave a surviving victim with some brain damage. Shrug, it’s a interesting possibility, but it could be a cultural myth too. More serious research needs to be conducted before taking Davis’ theory seriously. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-zombies-change-from-magic-to-science/829833.md?page=3)