# When do we stop wallowing in 9/11? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 7, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523 "2011-09-07T18:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/101 "2011-09-08T04:44:18Z")
I _do_ think that people wallow in the Holocaust. As someone who grew up in Jewish culture, though without much religious teaching, I got really, really sick of people talking about the Holocaust at a young age. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to be the only Jewish kid in your 6th grade class, and have to suffer through a unit on World War II and the _only_ picture of the Jewish people that your classmates get is emaciated concentration camp victims being bulldozed into mass graves? We didn’t learn about General Maurice Rose, Mickey Marcus, MGySgt Lou Diamond (“Mr. Marine”) or that Jewish medic who mowed down something like 250 Japanese soldiers with a machine gun and won the Medal of Honor. We didn’t learn about the Jewish scientists who gave America the atom bomb. All we learned were that Jews = Corpses. Yes, I’m fucking sick of the Holocaust. I’m sick of “Never Forget.” Please, forget. There are other genocides going on RIGHT NOW. _Those_ are what we should be trying to stop. But the Holocaust, in my opinion, _should_ be forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![EvilTOJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/102 "2011-09-08T06:16:18Z")
Relevant [news](http://www.theonion.com/articles/responsible-cable-news-outlets-to-devote-sensible,21284/) [articles](http://www.theonion.com/articles/nation-would-rather-think-about-911-than-anything,21309/). ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/103 "2011-09-08T06:22:15Z")
I drive by Tymochtee creek quite often. Who remembers the [massacree at Tymochtee](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_expedition)? Not many, But it seems to resonate especially for me around these times and also, Maybe because my Dad was named for [Fort Seybert](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Seybert), another Indian and Colnialist (Imperialist) Massacree. Everybody was a terrorrist back then, especially the Americans and the British and yes, the Indians, as well … remember the [Gnadehutten](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnadenhutten_massacre) would be my remeberance at this point and time. I’m offended by these monuments and memorials of innocence, something that we refuse to take responsibility for and act the outraged victim. That’s the only way in mass nationalism our leaders can entrain us to their warpolitiks and sustain this folly. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/104 "2011-09-08T06:26:36Z")
Your dad’s name was Fort? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/105 "2011-09-08T06:53:52Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/106 "2011-09-08T11:18:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And you don’t think that what I was responding too (i.e. ‘Because I don’t have a martyr complex. Also I’m not a tedious idiot, so I think that pretending I have an “emotional connection” to a national tragedy is childish’) is ‘holier than thou’, ehe? 😛 I specifically said that if one wants to feel that way, hey…whatever floats thy boat. But you take exception to what I’m saying as holier than though. Gotcha. Yeah, and you also said that if we don’t feel anything about those tragedies you listed, we aren’t human. Well, I’m not going to say I’m untouched by all those things. For instance, I did feel something for the Haitians because I have family members who are Haitian (sister’s in-laws). But even then, I wasn’t glued to my TV and wiping away tears. And with Japan, my “pain” was even more diffuse. Should I hang my head low in shame? When I watch the news and I hear about a family of four getting killed on the highway, I don’t feel anything either except perhaps, “Hope it wasn’t someone that I know.” > [@](#): > > Never said it made them evil, old boy. I said that you aren’t human if you don’t feel any empathy at all, and think that any sort of national tragedy is ‘childish’ when you feel emotional about it. To me, being evil is actually better than not being human. It may surprise you to learn that many people have difficulty with empathy, and most of them are not psychopaths. It’s not a state that people actually will themselves to be in. To be able to step into someone else’s shoes and wear their pain…it is a skill that comes naturally to some people. Others have to work very hard to develop it. Others die without experiencing it. You don’t have to be sick or non-human to be these people. I don’t shit on others for grieving over a national tragedy, so please don’t put me in that pack. But I can see what some posters in this thread are talking about: What’s happening on TV isn’t “grief”. It’s exploitation. Perhaps people who aren’t as attached to the event can see this more rationally. I’m all for ceremonies and moments of silence and all that. People will always have their rituals and need for pomp and circumstance. But if people who do not want their emotions to be exploited have to endure a whole month of retrospectives and emotional testimonies from everyone and their momma…you’re just asking people to eventually get tired of it all. There comes a point when the rest of ya’ll DO come across as holier than thou. Like the sobbing old lady falling in the coffin, who’s cutting evil eyes at the rest of us for not loving the dead as much as she does. > [@](#): > > If you can watch an entire village being washed away in Japan and feel nothing, and if you think that feeling anything about such an event is ‘childish’ then I think that’s a bit pathological, to be honest. But hey, I’m good with a bit of pathology…I’m a live and let live sort of guy. I would appreciate a bit of reciprocity however…if I want to feel emotional about something then that’s really my affair I’d say. > > -XT I don’t believe you want real reciprocity, because if you did you’d stop pathologizing people for not “feeling anything”. I felt bad when Japan experienced its earthquake, as well as Haiti, but if it had been Saudi Arabia, I probably would have felt absolutely nothing. If Hillary Clinton got hit by a bus, I’d feel bad. If Michelle Bachman did, I’d probably wouldn’t. I guess I’m not just a good person for being so inconsistent with my sympathy (sympathy and empathy are not the same). I do understand, however, that people cannot control how they feel. They can control what they do with their emotions and they can withhold judgment of people who do not feel as they do. But you can’t “guilt” people into feeling something they cannot feel. You can’t beat these people over the head with the maudlin and expect them to appreciate it. If understanding that there is no “should” in emotions makes me non-human, then I guess you can call me The Terminator. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/107 "2011-09-08T13:00:29Z")
First of all we have to make an exception for those who actually lost loved ones or were injured in the attack. A surprisingly apt observation from Bush was that everybody who died was the most important person in the world to somebody. So if you’re one of those, you have every right to grieve your loss. For the rest of us, if you say 9/11 changed your life forever, get over yourself. It wasn’t about you, you attention whore. We disgrace the memory of the dead when we start wars in their name, we disgrace them when we seek to limit the religious freedom of their fellow citizens, we disgrace them when we commit acts of torture and use their memory as political cover. 9/11 has become a cheap line to throw into a political speech and a bloody shirt to cover up unsavory legislation like the Patriot Act. It’s become too handy a political gimmick for some to resist. I have nothing against those who want to pause to remember the dead respectfully or those who view it as an important historical event to remember each year- it’s those that exploit 9/11 for political gain or their own personal reasons that I think need to step back. If remembering 9/11 means that America has Perpetual Victimhood status, then we could honor the dead much more by forgetting about 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/108 "2011-09-08T13:05:03Z")
Pretty off-topic, but I saw this article and just had to share. [WSJ article.](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904103404576556531604340742.html?mod=WSJ_topics_obama) > [@](#): > > According to a survey of 15- to 30-year-old men in the two southern provinces where President Barack Obama sent the bulk of American surge troops, 92% of respondents said they didn’t know about “this event which the foreigners call 9/11” after being read a three-paragraph description of the attacks. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/109 "2011-09-08T14:58:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Pretty off-topic, but I saw this article and just had to share. > > [WSJ article.](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904103404576556531604340742.html?mod=WSJ_topics_obama) > > > [@](#): > > > > According to a survey of 15- to 30-year-old men in the two southern provinces where President Barack Obama sent the bulk of American surge troops, 92% of respondents said they didn’t know about “this event which the foreigners call 9/11” after being read a three-paragraph description of the attacks. It would be a better world if 15- to 30-year-old Americans responded similarly. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/110 "2011-09-08T15:05:58Z")
Regarding **xtisme** ’s continual bringing up of the Japan tsunami, as if by being tired of ten years of constant 9/11 hysteria we hate all tragedy ever, I sincerely wonder how much time Japan will feel sorry for itself. There was horror and shock and I was right there with them, watching videos on Youtube people trapped in the middle of the floods had taken and helping out as much as I could from my own location. But after it actually happened, they picked their shit up and started fixing what they could. I haven’t kept up with news from Japan since then, but their reaction immediately afterward suggests to me they’re not going to spend much time banging the “the 2011 tsunami changed everything!” drum. People will grieve for their own lost loved ones, pick up the pieces, and carry on as best as they can. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/111 "2011-09-08T15:13:07Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > It would be a better world if 15- to 30-year-old Americans responded similarly. You are a turd. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/112 "2011-09-08T15:19:51Z")
9/11 changed everything. Or so I’m told. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/113 "2011-09-08T15:39:52Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > But after it actually happened, they picked their shit up and started fixing what they could. I haven’t kept up with news from Japan since then, but their reaction immediately afterward suggests to me they’re not going to spend much time banging the “the 2011 tsunami changed everything!” drum. People will grieve for their own lost loved ones, pick up the pieces, and carry on as best as they can. I suppose you have a point. The Japanese do indeed have a national culture of disregarding historical events, and things that came before them. If there’s one thing I know about Japan, it is that the people live completely without regard to any idealized notion of the roots of their society. I believe that most Japanese have never even heard of Japan’s dynastic history; and I’m pretty sure that the mythology of samurai and ninjas is pretty much a phenomenon only found in the United States. That’s because Japanese people are too busy doing high-tech things to care about anything in history. And let’s not get started on historical events. I’ve read that Japanese schools don’t even bother teaching history, because it’s just too abstract for most people’s minds. World War II is completely irrelevant to anyone: Japanese Prime Ministers sometimes visit a shrine in Tokyo that honors, among others, war criminals from WW2 (but I’m sure they would never go to such a shrine on purpose – they’re probably out walking the streets and decide to stop in to a park that they’ve never seen or heard of before, and whammo - all of a sudden they are in the news). Also thinking about how WW2 is completely forgotten, there was a massive trend a few years ago in Japan of writing alternate histories of World War 2 in which Japan was victorious. Not a single one of those books were sold, which was a major embarrassment to the publishers. But it also goes beyond a willful ignorance of historical events. It’s ingrained in the social structure. For example, once family members die, they are completely forgotten. Whoosh – it’s like everything about that elder goes straight down the memory hole. Life is for the living, as the ancient Japanese saying goes. Verily, if there is one culture you can point out that is all about forgetting what happened in the past and just keep chugging along, it is the Japanese. Shit, most of them don’t even know what year it is! The only other culture I can think of that has the remotely the same approach to historical events as you attribute to the Japanese is, perhaps, the Chinese. Man, they have no CLUE what happened even five minutes ago. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/114 "2011-09-08T15:45:22Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > It’s perfectly OK to let a nation commemorate, mourn, and reflect on an anniversary. What’s more shocking is that Ground Zero isn’t, well, rebuilt. > > “Not giving a fuck” is a heartless position to take. People did die. Yes, people die every day, but the people who did die could’ve just as easily been you, that shit was so senseless. It was a mass murder and it changed the way we do things. > > I’m not sure if the younger generation (mine?) is more likely to be affected because we grew up with Oklahoma and wtc in elementary and Columbine and 9/11 in secondary school…the latter two really wrecking our thought processes. Yeah, yeah, and my generation grew up with Jonestown and Son of Sam and the Challenger accident fear of nuclear war. If you let that stuff “wreck your thought processes” you need to learn some coping skills or you’re going to end up a walking open wound. Not an attractive trait in an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/115 "2011-09-08T16:10:58Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I suppose you have a point. The Japanese do indeed have a national culture of disregarding historical events, and things that came before them. That is a whole lot of sarcastic text for what amounts to a strawman. Do you not get that there is a difference between remembering what happened and constantly bringing it up every year in every possible context? It’s not an all or nothing thing, why the fuck do you all insist on portraying it that way? The choice isn’t between constant perpetual wailing and gnashing of teeth and forgetting it ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/116 "2011-09-08T16:20:05Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I dunno. We recently passed the 10th anniversary of the 2000 Bush-Gore election debacle without so much as a whisper from the media. The 9/11 attack & its immediate aftermath were giant media events. Most TV was pre-empted by coverage of the crime–how many advertising dollars were lost? And most of the media personnel involved acquitted themselves well–with a bit of dignity, in fact. The election debacle was covered, but I mostly remember reporters getting really bored by all those picky legal details. Who cares about all that dull political science stuff? Why couldn’t it just be _over_? Then, during the grim inauguration coverage, they spoke as one about how nice it was to have a “peaceful transfer of power.” While some of us were muttering about how we missed actually having lawful elections. During the whole affair, mass media covered itself with something other than glory. Of course, 9/11 made it unpatriotic to question Bush. We must unite! Oh, and let’s invade Iraq. So I can understand why the media are giving the anniversary of 9/11 more attention. Besides, this is the 10th–anniversaries containing a zero are always more “important.” Still, the OP can always watch something else. BBCamerica is full of _Top Gear_ & _Doctor Who_–nary a twin tower on either show. Or subscribe to Netflix Streaming. Or turn off the damn TV… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/117 "2011-09-08T16:24:20Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > That is a whole lot of sarcastic text for what amounts to a strawman. > > Do you not get that there is a difference between remembering what happened and constantly bringing it up every year in every possible context? It’s not an all or nothing thing, why the fuck do you all insist on portraying it that way? > > The choice isn’t between constant perpetual wailing and gnashing of teeth and forgetting it ever happened. As I said before, a week’s worth of news coverage on the 10th anniversary of 9-11 is hardly gnashing of teeth. Get over yourself. Having some 9-11 issues in the news for a few days isn’t turning us into wailing sissies. You and **spoke** seem to be the ones advocating the “nothing” in the all or nothing “thing.” Nobody here is arguing for more 9-11 coverage. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/118 "2011-09-08T16:33:44Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As I said before, a week’s worth of news coverage on the 10th anniversary of 9-11 is hardly gnashing of teeth. > > Get over yourself. Having some 9-11 issues in the news for a few days isn’t turning us into wailing sissies. You and **spoke** seem to be the ones advocating the “nothing” in the all or nothing “thing.” Nobody here is arguing for more 9-11 coverage. Again with the misrepresentation! We’re not talking about a brief remembrance on the 10th anniversary. We’re talking about 10 years of near constant remembrance. If there had been a yearly remembrance until 2006, then it was put aside until 2011, I wouldn’t be nearly so annoyed. I hope, but don’t expect, that things will settle down now. Hell, I remember this argument coming up the last year or two. The fact that it happens to be the 10th anniversary this time around doesn’t actually mean as much as you think to us bitchers. It’s just another year in the constant 9/11 parade. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/119 "2011-09-08T16:55:06Z")
I can sympathize with the OP, but there ain’t nothing any of us can do about it. Hell, my ATM flashed me a 9/11 memorial message while it was processing my deposit yesterday. :rolleyes: Fact is it sells. Both commercially and politically. Else it wouldn’t be there. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523/120 "2011-09-08T17:02:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I can sympathize with the OP, but there ain’t nothing any of us can do about it. Hell, my ATM flashed me a 9/11 memorial message while it was processing my deposit yesterday. :rolleyes: > > Fact is it sells. Both commercially and politically. Else it wouldn’t be there. I feel likewise. For me, I have been touched by some elements within the overall collective remembrance effort. On the other hand, I’m oppositional enough to have a slightly negative reaction to the city bus instructing me to “Never Forget” on its electronic message board. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-do-we-stop-wallowing-in-9-11/595523.md?page=7)