When do you "know" an instrument?

There comes a point when playing your instrument is less about creating music and more about expressing oneself. It sounds unbearably cheesy to say, but I realized that I knew the piano when I would be playing a piece I knew off by heart and suddenly I wasn’t just playing the notes that were there on the page–I was playing it from myself and this piece that was written in the 1700s was, right now, all about me and my emotions and I had done that.

But learning and knowing aren’t really mutually exclusive. I know how to speak English, but I can still learn new words.

Heh, that’s hilarious. Did you get a deep low tone going to shake the building, and therefore the floors in the bowling alley? It must’ve sounded amazing.

That puts me in mind of when I was shopping for guitars in this old thread. On one of the days I shopped, there were several players being really loud, so my salesguy invited me to play in the acoustic guitar room. He dragged an amp in there, a really tall room with just dozens and dozens of acoustics on the wall and on stands all over the floor, and I plugged in. I fiddled a bit at low volume, then turned up and cranked out. I paused for a moment, and all those dozens of instruments resonated the last chord I’d played. Spoookey!
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This one time, in band camp…

I think you know an instrument when you know, exactly, what you don’t know or can’t do.

I am a decent player, used to be much better when I had the time to really practice, and I know exactly what my deficiencies are and how to fix those. I also know what I can play and what is going to require some of practice. I can hear something and say ‘Yeah, I can do that’ or ‘That’ll take some work’ or (every once in a while) ‘Ain’t gonna happen’.

Slee

Note: Most of my remarks here are aimed at the entire audience, and not specifically at Rhythmdvl, from whose posts generally I gather has a solid understanding of music.

This isn’t always true; I’ve read interviews of world famous, first rank rock guitarists who say they still can’t always do that in spite of decades of celebrity and a dozen albums. However good you are on the instrument technically, it’s possible for the song in your head to challenge you in its execution. And it would make sense that the more proficient you do become, the more fertile and productive your musical imagination becomes.

I think the ability to play an instrument well breaks down into two core areas. First, you need to know how to make the sounds, obviously, and some instruments may be easier in this regard than others. By the same token, different musicians take differently to different instruments. For instance, I played ragtime piano for years, but was completely unable to branch out into jazz, classical, or blues. It was very frustrating to be so limited. OTOH when I took up guitar I had a much easier time learning various genres. I started out with blues and rock, but am now an avid classical guitarist in addition to that. Somehow the instrument is just easier for me than the piano ever was.

Secondly, you need to understand music–what sounds good and what doesn’t. If you’re improvising, you need to understand the chord progression and what scales or notes you can use when. If you’re playing something as written, the score does tell you exactly how to play it, but you need to understand phrasing to be able to easily read it. IMO this understanding is the basically the same for all musicians, regardless of their instruments.

Ah, in the Biblical sense.

When you can teach it to someone.

I’m not sure about not being able to learn it. How were you trained in this aspect? I know quite a few people who started out only reading music, but have learned at least rudimentary improv. In fact, you have to to become a music major, as Ear Training is a required course.

Now, I will grant that it is a whole lot easier for some people than others. And that there might be a few people who can’t learn it. But I think can learn to some degree. Heck, I wouldn’t bother teaching it if I didn’t think so.

emcee2k by your definition of “know” a beginning guitar student knows guitar and a kindergartner knows English. I think the problem here is with the word know. There is know as in acquainted with, know as in competent with and then know as in mastered.

My comment was addressing “know” as in mastered. I sincerely believe that even masters realize that there are infinite vistas of music before them.

As far as being simply competent, it is mostly a matter of what and how much you practice. I met a guy who went from beginner to Berklee School of Music student in 2 years of nonstop learning and practice. On the other hand there are countless people who never become competent.

Having reread the op I reiterate, if you are truly into music, there is no point at which you stop learning and are in a state of all knowing. Competency and the ability to improvise on the other hand, are attainable by most people with enough practice.

I think it’s assumed that there is always more to learn. Just like with language. The fact that there is more words to learn doesn’t mean I don’t “know” English, and obviously someone who only knows a few phrases doesn’t “know” English.

In language the difference is whether or not you’re fluent, so I guess the question is “when are ‘fluent’ with an instrument?”