When does a human fetus become a person with personhood rights, and why do you think so?

Thank you for pointing this out. I wasn’t sure what you meant and had to look it up… are you referring to the Tremblay v Daigle case?

If so, and if I’m reading the Wikipedia summary of it correctly:

The fetal rights were said to be anchored in the rights to life [under various charters and laws]. […] The Supreme Court considered and rejected all these arguments. As the Court noted, its role was to consider the fetus’s legal status; it would not rule on its biological status, nor would it enter “philosophical and theological debates.” […] Although the Charter does say its rights belong to humans, whether the fetus is a human is a merely “linguistic” question that would not solve the issue […]

[T]he Court considered the argument that since the Code deals with fetuses as “juridical” persons, fetuses must legally be human beings. Human beings, under the Code, have rights. Once again, the Court expressed skepticism as to the nature of the term “human being”, noting the linguistic nature of the argument. While the Code does give fetuses some similar treatment to legal persons, the Court replied that this does not necessarily imply other fetal rights exist. In the situations where fetuses are recognized as juridical persons, the Court stated that this is a “fiction of the civil law”.

The case next turned to Canadian law and common law. With some historical review, it was noted that while fetuses have usually had some protection under the law, abortion has not usually been viewed as being comparable to murder. Thus, a fetus is not a person under common law. The Court also declined to address the question of fetal rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, noting that the Charter applies to government; it has no force in legal disputes between private citizens, which was the case in Tremblay v Daigle."

If that is the decision you are referring to, it seems to me that they’re not so much drawing a “bright line”, more just sidestepping the question altogether by saying they would not be the ones to resolve the dispute, that they were only looking at previous laws and did not find special protections for fetuses therein, and furthermore, that government shouldn’t be involved because it’s a private dispute between two parents (the fetus not being eligible under the charters and laws they examined).

If that’s an accurate reading of it, it seems like they’re really just passing the buck, and leaves open the possibility that later laws could move the needle either way (giving fetuses rights, or allowing infanticide). It doesn’t explicitly say that a fetus is not worthy of protections (only that they could not find it in charters and codes), nor does it say why birth automatically grants personhood rights.

On one hand, I think this is a perfectly reasonable approach to lawmaking (leave the government out of private matters between parents / a woman and their doctor), but it also doesn’t really meaningfully justify the status quo, just interprets it for the purposes of prosecution or the lack thereof. (I’m also not familiar with the Canadian legal system at all, so if I’m wrong about any of this, please say so.)

The “previous laws don’t explicitly say fetuses have rights, therefore we’re going to keep that going” line of argument might’ve worked for the Supreme Court of Canada in 1989, but probably wouldn’t fly in today’s political environment in the US, for example.

Right, but it does seem to indicate that laws do depend on moral values, whether they should or not. (Agreeing with Babale here.) They can’t be treated as separate issues. Skimming the full text of the case, it seems like born-viable fetuses (i.e., babies) have that right because a Canadian charter gave it to them (or at least recognized it in them), but that belief in that right is a moral judgment from some subset of that particular society, dating back to its Anglo-Canadian heritage. Other societies, as you say, may not necessarily have those rights enshrined by (or at least observed) by default.

In other words, there was some presupposed/chartered human rights under Canadian law. The court found that those rights did not apply to fetuses under those charters and related laws, and declined to grant them such rights (if the court were even able to do that). But if that court had a different makeup, or different people in other parts of government, it seems like the outcome could’ve been very different (like happened with Roe v Wade being overturned in the US).

Lawmaking isn’t amoral and I’d argue it cannot be; it is merely a reflection of the majority’s morals (by power, if not by vote). If the minorities are lucky, they may have squeezed in some compromise. If they’re not, they are simply oppressed by the will of the law and the morality of the majority group. And that’s not a hypothetical either; the law is oppressing women every day in the US (and elsewhere) now, because somebody with more power made a moral judgment and enshrined it into law.

Edit: And also, I’d argue that working backward from existing laws in order to justify a philosophical or moral standing would be going about it in reverse, using the ends to justify the means — e.g., “personhood is this way (or not) because the law says it is”. Not a very satisfying line of thought. A Supreme Court may be a collection of honorable (or not) judges, but they’re still just people making interpretations based on their own and their predecessors’ moral judgments.

No, Tremblay v Daigle wasn’t what I was thinking of, though you might note the very first line of the description: “Tremblay v Daigle [1989] 2 S.C.R. 530, was a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in which it was found that a fetus has no legal status in Canada as a person.” This was actually a case heard a year after criminal abortion laws had already been overturned by that same court. It dealt with the question of whether, nevertheless, the fetus has “personhood” status to the extent that a third party – notably a current or former spouse – had standing to prohibit the spouse from obtaining an abortion. The answer was “no”.

This was one of at least four different Supreme Court decisions about abortion in Canada. The landmark decision was R v Morgentaler, [1988] which overturned all aborton laws in Canada by declaring them unconstitutional:

R v Morgentaler, [1988] 1 SCR 30 was a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada which held that the abortion provision in the Criminal Code was unconstitutional because it violated women’s rights under section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to security of the person. Since this ruling, there have been no criminal laws regulating abortion in Canada.

There was another case in 1993 in which the province of Nova Scotia sought to prevent Dr Morgentaler from opening an abortion clinic in that province. In Canada, criminal law falls exclusively under federal jurisdiction, and the Supreme Court ruled that any effort by a province to restrict abortions was an unconstitutional incursion into federal jurisdiction.

Ever since the landmark ruling in 1988, there have been no abortion laws at all in Canada, and despite some protests by anti-abortionists and editorials by religionists, in the years after that ruling things seem to have gone quiet.

Of course they can. Instead of emotion, religiosity, and misogyny, when enacting laws one can apply sound logic that emphases reason, compassion, and the best interests of a free and enlightened society. Those cultures that engage in practices like infanticide and “honour killings” cannot justify their practices on any logical or moral grounds, but only by bigotry and reference to ancient religious texts, the kind that demand that unfaithful women and homosexuals be stoned to death in the village square.

It’s a continuum. At birth, the baby should receive full protection of the law: I oppose infanticide. Before that, it’s a matter of brain development in my view. Adult brain waves only emerge in the 3rd trimester, though this will vary by fetus.

Human infants are born premature by the standards of other animals, so this view has a built in safety margin.

Yes. That is my position.

I don’t care about legally, and morally the right of the woman to bodily autonomy trumps all other concerns. I thought that reason was already understood, but there, said it again.

I am. One is the actual argument - the pregnant person’s bodily autonomy is paramount - and one is just a response to the attempt to appeal to emotion that is best summarized as “But… But… Dead BABIES!!!1111One”

No. Even if it were alive, it still would not trump her autonomy.

No, by “supported foetus” I’m talking about the foetus inside the mother, dependent on her for its oxygen and nutrients.

When they are an independent person from the adult human whose rights otherwise supersede theirs. So No; Yes, I guess, if you’re talking some kind of artificial womb; No, if by non-viable you mean dead?

No, I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I wasn’t talking about what happens outside her. The “Supported foetus” is supported by the (potential) mother-to-be.

Yes, that’s my position.

Yes. That’s what I said with my first post.

That’s classic misleading vividness, as you acknowledge, but yes. I mean, that’s not how I’d run these things, but it’s the logical end-point of my stance.

Am I supposed to be appalled at where my moral stance has led me? Naah, I’m good with it.

Nope. The fact that the foetus is inside another person is all that matters.

So has there been a rash of 41st-week abortions in the last 45 years?

Hot take: a developing human becomes a real human being when it develops volition, which as best as i can tell happens a month or two after birth.

BUT: a developing human that is about to become a real human being has enormous moral value, and should be cared for and protected whenever possible.

A fertilized egg is just a cell. A fetus about to be born is nearly human. The latter has much much more moral value, but there’s not a bright line.

Further:

Yup. In many places you are allowed to use lethal force to remove an unambiguously fully formed human from your house. Shouldn’t you have more autonomy over your own body than over sticks and stones?

Personally, i think that a nearly born fetus has enough moral value that if a woman wants it removed from her body, she should use non-lethal means if that’s a reasonably option. (So, a c-section or induced birth, not an abortion.) But i believe in bodily autonomy, and also i believe that the mother is a real human being and the fetus is only something that has the potential to become a real human being. So her rights absolutely and totally trump the rights of the fetus.

Just popping in to add another vote to “At the earliest when the brain is developed enough to be functional”.
Certainly not when the nutrient pump first activates.No working brain - no possibility of being a person.
(Yes, sadly that would also apply to brain dead/damaged humans. But I don’t think it’s a constant on/off question, it’s a question of when it starts and the answer stays then.)

The threshold certainly can’t be conception. For one thing, that would mean that a pair of identical twins is only one person, which is clearly absurd.

The only logical way to draw the threshold is some milestone of neurological development, because what makes us people is a function of our minds, which reside in our brains. Precisely which milestone, I don’t know. And of course in practice we wouldn’t measure for that milestone in every single individual; we’d find the age at which it happens and use that age as the criterion.

The argument “A person shouldn’t have to have someone else dependent on them” doesn’t work. Imagine, if you will, someone who decides to take a boat and sail around the world. And imagine that they choose to take their (born, but still young) child with them. And imagine that, halfway through the trip and weeks from any land, that person decides that they don’t want the responsibilities of parenthood any more. They can’t just toss the kid overboard: They’ve assumed responsibilities, and if they didn’t want those responsibilities, they shouldn’t have assumed them. They’re stuck with the kid at least until they can reach some place where they can put them up for adoption.

Similarly, if a person chooses to allow another person to grow inside their body, they’ve assumed the responsibility to continue to allow that person to grow until such time as it’s possible to hand the child off. If they didn’t want that responsibility, they shouldn’t have allowed a person to grow inside of them to begin with.

Important point here – the right to evict someone or something from inside your body is absolute. But if, in the future, it were possible to get the fetus out of the body entirely safely to the mother, with no pain or risk of complications, and fully incubate the fetus to baby-hood artificially, then my position (which is merely limited to the paramount rights of people over their own bodies) would be entirely consistent with a law that stated anyone can end their pregnancy at any time, but the growing fetus must be removed live and intact and placed on that sci-fi incubation system. That would be a different legal and moral argument, with different considerations, and I’m not sure what my position would be exactly. My position is only about the bodily autonomy rights of individuals, which are (or should be) absolute.

Yes, of society as a whole can support those artificial wombs, i would agree, at least after some point in fetal development.

Not because i think killing the fetus is murder, but because i think it’s wrong on its own, like theft and assault are wrong without being murder.

It’s interesting that despite all the roadblocks against abortion in the US, it still has a higher abortion rate than Canada which has no laws against it and has generally better access to reproductive health care – 14.4 abortions per 1000 in the US vs 12.0 in Canada. Furthermore, abortion rates have remained relatively steady in Canada while they’ve been rising in many other countries. So arguments that strong abortion laws are necessary “to protect the unborn” seem to be missing a lot of factual information.

No, because the vast majority of people - doctors included - believe that they’d be morally abhorrent and would neither request one nor agree to perform one.

What I can’t figure out is if you agree, that it would be pretty horrible, but that denying bodily autonomy is worse; or if you actually see absolutely nothing wrong with killing a 41 week old baby just because you’ve decided that the term “kill” doesn’t technically apply if an umbilical cord exists.

This is all very reasonable, the only reason I can’t get fully on board is that there are people who never develop volition to the same extent or who lose it, and I am not comfortable with a definition of humanity or personhood that excludes those people.

More relevant, perhaps, is that essentially everyone contemplating an elective abortion is going to have it early on. It makes no sense to carry a baby nearly to term and then request an elective abortion, unless there is some medical emergency. And you’re right – virtually all doctors would refuse to perform a late-term abortion under normal circumstances.

But as a matter of law in Canada, there are no arbitrary lines as to when an abortion is legal and when it is not – the law quite properly has nothing to say on the matter. Once the baby is born, it’s treated under law like any other human being.

This seems fairly reasonable to me. The transition to viability is a little bit problematic I think (you might disagree); early in the pregnancy, the fetus is insufficiently developed to be able to survive outside of the womb, so it’s clear that if the pregnancy is to be terminated for any reason, the fetus will also be terminated.
Very late in the pregnancy, labour could be induced or a CS performed, and a viable baby would be delivered; it seems wrong and unnecessary to terminate that life.

The tricky part is the cusp between those two phases - if the pregnancy needed termination, why not earlier or I suppose to put that another (and probably too glib) way if you’ve waited this long, why not wait a little longer. I don’t have an answer and I agree that the mother’s rights are paramount, but some of the possible outcomes are bad - that might just be something we need to accept in a world where perfect choices aren’t possible.

So it’s a nothingburger only raised in order to parade images of partial birth abortions in front of everyone. Just as I thought.

And the answer to your question is both. I see nothing wrong with killing a foetus, and even if I did (as I have thought in the past), I would still prize bodily autonomy over it.

Here, let me give you one of those sci-fi hypothetical y’all seem to love so much in these threads: if somehow a fully grown, fully aware, lucid, communicative 16.y.o, person was attached to a woman in such a way that if they were cut off, they’d definitely die - I’d still favour the woman’s right to cut them off.

Bodily autonomy is all I care about while it’s in the picture. It overrides all other factors for me. It’s that simple.

Works for me.
Your example uses “dependent” in two different senses. The child in the boat is not dependent on the adult in the same way the foetus is on the pregnant person.

Basically the fallacy of equivocation between physiological dependence and.care-based dependence.

I don’t, if removal involves a medical procedure and the mother doesn’t want that procedure.

This thread blew up so fast I’ll admit that I had to skim most of the responses. That said, I’m in the personhood is irrelevant camp.

The reason it’s irrelevant is because this is all a matter of consent. It doesn’t matter of the fetus is fully conscious and writing physics equations, if the woman does not consent to it being in her body, then she has the right to remove it. An abortion is just the termination of a pregnancy (technically giving birth is a type of abortion). If the fetus is not viable and dies after the abortion, that’s just a sad result of biology, but it’s not murder.

Consent is only given until it’s not, it can be withdrawn at any time. Sex becomes rape the instant one of the parties says stop. It doesn’t matter why, once consent is withdrawn, it’s withdrawn. 50 no’s and a yes may mean yes, but 50 yes’s and a no means no. It’s the same thing with pregnancy. Once the woman decides she doesn’t want the pregnancy anymore, then the fetus, whether it’s a person or not, doesn’t have further right to inhabit and user her body. The reason doesn’t matter.

Similarly, nobody can be forced to donate a kidney to someone else, even if that other person will die without the kidney. It could even be your own child. You can’t even be forced to give a blood transfusion, because bodily autonomy. Even if you do consent to the blood transfusion or whatever, and you decide halfway through that you feel uncomfortable, you start to panic because of the needle, or you just have a change of heart, then the procedure must stop.

If a woman can be forced to carry a fetus she does not want in her body anymore, then that fetus has MORE rights than any born person, adult, etc. This is why the personhood argument is irrelevant. Even if the fetus had the same rights as anyone else, they still don’t have the right to use someone else’s body without their consent.

Now in the case of an aborted blood transfusion, or a late-term pregnancy abortion, there are medical best practices that should be adhered to. When the patient says “no, I’m done!” you don’t just rip out tubes indiscriminately or dive in with forceps right stat now. Late-term abortions after the point where the fetus is viable are generally induced deliveries anyway. So if the fetus can be saved, then that’s a discussion worth having. Still, the fetus must come out, otherwise it has more bodily autonomy than the mother, and thus more rights than any born human.

Generally only when you have a reasonable belief that the person presents an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm though. So, maybe something akin to this exception in the present discussion is abortion is acceptable when the continuation of the pregnancy presents a threat of harm to the mother.