# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/181 "2023-09-11T12:13:22Z")
Is it a crime? If it is a crime what is the potential penalty? If it is not a crime then what is the fuss? A little inappropriate at worst? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/182 "2023-09-11T12:15:51Z")
Folks have suggested switching up the genders in various ways to see how this is problematic. Consider another switch: Imagine that instead of the women’s soccer team winning, this was Superbowl 2023. The Kansas City Chiefs just won, and Patrick Mahomes was MVP. > **[Patrick Mahomes (QB): Bio, News, Stats & more](https://www.chiefs.com/team/players-roster/patrick-mahomes/)** > > Kansas City Chiefs Player Roster: The official source of the latest Chiefs player roster and team information Andy Reid, head coach, is excited. > **[Success, trust and burnt ends: Why everyone loves Chiefs coach Andy Reid](https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30424487/why-everyone-loves-chiefs-coach-andy-reid)** > > It's easy to find current and former players who have good things to say about Reid, who has an uncanny way of making everyone feel involved. He runs up to Patrick, leaps in his arms, straddles him, then grabs his head and kisses him on the lips. What do you think would happen, and why? Would Patrick be okay with this? Why or why not? How does your honest emotional response differ between the two scenarios, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/183 "2023-09-11T12:22:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m curious how many years in prison many posters here might think this man should have gotten? A classic well-poisoning question. If you really want to know more about the circumstances surrounding this famous photo of George Mendonsa and Greta Friedman on V-J Day in 1945, and the opinions of both parties about the incident, [you can read about them.](https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2019/02/a-sailor-a-nurse-and-a-kiss-on-v-j-day/) But if you seriously think that that situation is meaningfully relevant to the issue of a sports federation leader sexually assaulting a player in 2023, then you just can’t have been paying attention in this thread in any constructive way. Just because everybody knows that many casual public forms of sexual assault were considered socially more acceptable eighty years ago than they are today does not mean that people today are unreasonable or hypocritical for saying that sexual assault is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/184 "2023-09-11T12:30:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is it a crime? Possibly; that’s for prosecutors, and possibly the criminal justice system in the relevant jurisdiction, to decide. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If it is a crime what is the potential penalty? Haven’t you been reading this thread? Pardel-Lux in [post #63](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/63) just cited us a whole bunch of relevant provisions of Spain’s legal code. Are you saying that you can’t be bothered to read it, or tried to read it and don’t understand it, and therefore want somebody else to explain it to you? If so, a “please” might be nice. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If it is not a crime then what is the fuss? A little inappropriate at worst? Well, as discussed at length in this thread, it’s possible that the actions in question do qualify as criminal behavior as some sort. Even if they don’t, are you seriously claiming that you don’t understand why anybody ever makes any fuss about behavior that is outrageous and offensive without being actually criminal? Do you really perceive no possible middle ground between “actual violation of law” and “trivially inappropriate behavior that it’s ridiculous for anybody to make a fuss about”? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/185 "2023-09-11T12:31:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is it a crime? > > If it is a crime what is the potential penalty? > > If it is not a crime then what is the fuss? A little inappropriate at worst? If you want to make this into a _vaguely_ comparable analogy, what would be the appropriate reaction if this photo showed just the latest instance in a context where U.S. sailors in port had been (for many years) roaming the streets of Manhattan, sexually assaulting women and getting away with it? Contrary to OP’s title, the primary public debate here has nothing to do with the appropriate criminal penalty for a specific incident. The widespread outrage in the Rubiales case is because this was a very public instance of a systemic problem of machismo culture and toxic sexism. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/186 "2023-09-11T12:40:17Z")
Our posts overlapped. (That is, I was writing when you posted.) But I believe I answered that to the extent it’s relevant to this thread. I am an organizer of events that inspire “celebratory hugging”, and also one of the group charged with keeping the events safe for participants. If someone did that at one of my events: 1. If we thought it was a misunderstanding of some sort, we’d talk to him, and make it clear that should never happen again. 2. More likely, we’d throw him out of all events we organized. 3. We would not call the police. I recognize that casual sexual assault of women was much more socially acceptable 80 years ago than it is today. I’m going to go read Kimstu’s link, because I’m really curious how the woman in the photo felt about it. From that one captured moment, it’s hard to know if she consented. That’s actually one of the things that makes the photo visually arresting, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/187 "2023-09-11T12:40:28Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The widespread outrage in the Rubiales case is because this was a very public instance of a systemic problem of machismo culture and toxic sexism. I don’t think that 5-second video in the OP tells us anything of that. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/188 "2023-09-11T12:40:30Z")
There were articles at the time which mentioned she lifted him up with a bear hug before the kiss. I was going off of memory. Regardless, my point was more about how context matters and how the line for physical contact in sports is different than in the office or on the street with regards to the 1-4 years in jail. The kiss was over the line, but the line is much further away in sports. For instance, contact like this would get you in trouble in the workplace and possibly arrested if you did it to a stranger: [![](https://i.imgur.com/QySmaRy.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/QySmaRy.png) The kiss was over the line, but I would expect the court to view it relative to the level of physical contact commonly found in this environment. Even in this award ceremony, the presenters were embracing the athletes and kissing them on the cheek. Those behaviors are accepted in this environment but could bring jail time in other environments. Again, I’m saying his kiss was over the line, but the court would view it in the context of this environment where everyone was being embraced and kissed on the cheek. They wouldn’t view it as if the kiss was made to a random person on the street. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/189 "2023-09-11T12:43:22Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I recognize that casual sexual assault of women was much more socially acceptable 80 years ago than it is today. I’m curious about a definition of this. Women jumping in to kiss a guy without explicit permission is very common in popular culture. Are they sexually assaulting the man? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/190 "2023-09-11T12:43:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I don’t think that 5-second video in the OP tells us anything of that. Indeed it doesn’t. If only there were some way to learn more about it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/191 "2023-09-11T12:44:45Z")
Do you do a deep dive on all posts on the SDMB? A thorough and detailed analysis of what the poster posted? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/192 "2023-09-11T12:48:32Z")
Is it very common for women to jump in and kiss a complete stranger? “Without explicit permission” means one thing if it’s my boyfriend or even a date and something very different if it’s a complete stranger. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/193 "2023-09-11T12:48:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Women jumping in to kiss a guy without explicit permission is very common in popular culture. …yeah. We really should stop that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/194 "2023-09-11T12:53:20Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > There were articles at the time which mentioned she lifted him up with a bear hug before the kiss. I was going off of memory. Regardless… “Regardless”? You’re backing off into vague generalizations about “the level of physical contact commonly found in this environment”? I’m missing the part where you acknowledge that your interpretation from a still that “she lifted him up with a bear hug before the kiss” has been shown to be completely wrong, and that the video that shows the entire incident preceding the kiss in fact makes Rubiales’ behavior look far _worse_. In case you missed it, here once again is the video that @Banquet_Bear found of the entire interaction. Would you care to comment on what you see here? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZo05e6OH3I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZo05e6OH3I) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/195 "2023-09-11T12:55:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you do a deep dive on all posts on the SDMB? A thorough and detailed analysis of what the poster posted? This is GD. Are you saying that your preferred approach is to jump in to express opinions from a position of ignorance, as though that’s a virtue? All you had to do here was read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/196 "2023-09-11T12:59:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Women jumping in to kiss a guy without explicit permission is very common in popular culture. Are they sexually assaulting the man? Absolutely, forcibly kissing anybody without their consent is sexual assault, and nobody should do it, whatever the gender of the assaulter or assaultee. Do you have a cite for your claim that such behavior by women “is very common in popular culture”? Even if it’s common, of course, that doesn’t make it morally or legally right, but your assertion doesn’t seem all that plausible to me based on my own (admittedly limited) awareness of “popular culture”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/197 "2023-09-11T13:09:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’m curious how many years in prison many posters here might think this man should have gotten? I mentioned this above, but did you know, the woman in the photo didn’t concent to this kiss, and in fact tried to punch the guy assaulting her? But like we mentioned earlier, his _team_ had just won, so hey, what’s a little sexual assault? 1-4 years seems about right to me. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/198 "2023-09-11T13:15:28Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Regardless, my point was more about how context matters and how the line for physical contact in sports is different than in the office or on the street with regards to the 1-4 years in jail. …can you explain why? As a former commercial photographer, I have to point out that a static screenshot tells us nothing. They don’t give us additional context. Instead they typically take on the story that the person presenting those images tell us. I’ve got just under half a million event photos uploaded to my online galleries. And I could easily craft a different narrative by cherry-picking which images to tell the story I wanted to. > [@filmore](#): > > The kiss was over the line The kiss was over the line. The jump and the weird crotch hump was over the line. The holding the face was over the line. The slap as she walks away was over the line. The over-the-top-hysterics from the president was over the line. The gas-lighting, the threats, the feet-stomping, the childish behaviour from the president was over the line. And the establishment clapping and cheering for the president was over the line as well. > [@filmore](#): > > They wouldn’t view it as if the kiss was made to a random person on the street. Historically, the courts have often viewed things in a way that aren’t fair, or aren’t just. Because if they were, then idiots like this would be less inclined to do stupid pranks like this that make women uncomfortable. (CW: youtube “prankster” tries to get random women on the street to kiss him. Don’t read the comments) > **[Shut Up and Kiss Me Uncut](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0B-Ct5Z7kA%2F)** > > Subscribe- http://youtube.com/thatwasalmostepicMain Channel- http://youtube.com/thatwasepic11FACEBOOK- http://facebook.com/thatwasepic11INSTAGRAM- http://ins... ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/199 "2023-09-11T13:22:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > Women jumping in to kiss a guy without explicit permission is very common in popular culture. Are they sexually assaulting the man? > > Absolutely, forcibly kissing anybody without their consent is sexual assault, and nobody should do it, whatever the gender of the assaulter or assaultee. > > Do you have a cite for your claim that such behavior by women “is very common in popular culture”? Even if it’s common, of course, that doesn’t make it morally or legally right, but your assertion doesn’t seem all that plausible to me based on my own (admittedly limited) awareness of “popular culture”. Thanks. I second all of that. And I’ve never seen a woman jumping in to kiss a guy without permission. The idea that a woman would kiss a guy she doesn’t know, or someone she only knows in a professional context, strikes me as ought bizarre. (Jumping to kiss your husband without explicit consent at that moment, or your wife, for that matter, is an understanding many couples have. Consent takes a variety of forms.) ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/200 "2023-09-11T13:28:30Z")
I think Whack-a-Mole is referring to the way our culture (media definitely included) treats sexual assault by women as something that can’t really happen because (again, according to pop culture) men just want it all the time or something. It’s the same kind of reasoning that leads to male students abused by female teachers being treated as a joke, for example. I don’t dispute that this is a sentiment that exists in our culture, but I’d argue it _shouldn’t_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=11)