# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/221 "2023-09-11T15:41:48Z")
I think it’s all interconnected as part of the culture of bullying and sexism. Vilda had only survived in his position so long as Rubiales was there to protect him; and Vilda was part of the despicable efforts to get women players to show support for Rubiales (and to lie about it when they would not do so). I think this is a #MeToo moment and when people believe that these creeps are no longer in a position of unchallenged power much more is going to come out. There’s a bizarre story that until a few years ago Vilda had a rule that women players could not lock their hotel doors until midnight, so that he could go and “check on them”. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/222 "2023-09-11T15:55:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I didn’t, because I was painfully shy; instead, I just sat there feeling miserable and humiliated. It wasn’t until much later that I started thinking about how what she was asking for was for guys to violate consent Sounds to me like she was giving you permission to kiss her, and you didn’t realize it! ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/223 "2023-09-11T16:00:59Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And that is entirely **your** choice. > > ISTM in the thread sone people are assuming some sort of absolute binary in which the only choices are everybody in every instance gets criminally punished hard, or nobody does. Just because this sort of assault MAY carry a 1-4 year penalty does not mean it **always must**. > > But if the law says behavior X is punishable, the person who finds him/herself subjected to it _is_ legally _and_ morally justified in pursuing that redress. Let the _court_ decide what is deserved. But, therein lies the problem. We live in a society and have to get along as a group. If you, personally, are totally opposed to being touched in any manner then when do you get to decide to call the cops? I have been in many crowds. Concerts, festivals, and so on. Played sports where contact happens and smacks on the back/butt happen. I have been in bars when a sports team has won and people are hugging all around…maybe even a MWAH kiss (in my case a few Bull’s championships and Cubs World Series). Hugging all around. Not groping. Not Frenching anyone within reach. Just general exuberance. I’d suggest if you (general you) are a person who is not ok with any of that then you do not put yourself in such places. If you do put yourself in such places then you have to accept the norm for that place. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/224 "2023-09-11T16:04:39Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > I didn’t, because I was painfully shy; instead, I just sat there feeling miserable and humiliated. It wasn’t until much later that I started thinking about how what she was asking for was for guys to violate consent > > Sounds to me like she was giving you permission to kiss her, and you didn’t realize it! We all know that’s the thought that kept us up at night. To me, and I’m certainly not a 15 year old girl (but I did grow up in the 80s), the intent wasn’t meant as a blanket granting of consent to anyone who had a crush on her, but rather the expression of a fantasy, that if certain guys had a crush on her, it would be fun if they kissed her without asking. A “swept off her feet” fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/225 "2023-09-11T16:11:55Z")
But that is exactly it: **society** HAS established a legal procedure to determine whether the contact the person experiences rises to the level of deserving punishment. So it may be used. And “be nowhere where that may happen” is **not** an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/226 "2023-09-11T16:12:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > > If it is a crime what is the potential penalty? > > Haven’t you been reading this thread? Pardel-Lux in [post #63](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/63) just cited us a whole bunch of relevant provisions of Spain’s legal code. Actually [post #75](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/76) is the more relevant one. And in case of TL;DR: yes, it is possibly a crime, the judge will decide about that, the prosecution has already presented a case, as has the player, Ms Hermoso, and the potential penalty ranges from a fine to four years in prison. IANAL, but from context I guess the verdict will be: guilty, and the sentence will be just under two years, so Mr. Rubiales will be granted automatic probation, but Ms Hermoso will be able to claim he is guilty. Oh, and probably a fine of about 300,000 Euro (six months worth of his salary in Spain, not counting bonuses and FIFA salaries and perks). I may well be completely off. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/227 "2023-09-11T16:12:19Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > To me, and I’m certainly not a 15 year old girl (but I did grow up in the 80s), the intent wasn’t meant as a blanket granting of consent to anyone who had a crush on her, but rather the expression of a fantasy, that if certain guys had a crush on her, it would be fun if they kissed her without asking. A “swept off her feet” fantasy. I was a 15 year old girl ( although slightly before the 80s) and I would say 1) that she was giving him permission to kiss her and 2) that she never would have said that to someone she didn’t want to kiss ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/228 "2023-09-11T16:12:34Z")
You really think there are brightlines to this? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/229 "2023-09-11T16:13:04Z")
That’s why there are courts. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/230 "2023-09-11T16:13:36Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Sounds to me like she was giving you permission to kiss her, and you didn’t realize it! I mean, maybe–and I did realize it at the time. I was certainly mooning about, and she was probably exasperated with me, and just wanted it out in the open. But see: painfully shy. Knowing all that just made me more miserable. (Eventually she started dating someone else, and I wrote her a letter full of self-pitying confessions of my feelings, and she wrote me back a letter that was like, “what is even wrong with you, your ideas about romance are _jacked_,” and it was something of a wakeup call for me). Thing is, even though it seemed like a good idea to her at the time, it’s no way to run a society. What she thought might have worked for her in that moment is not what would work in millions of other moments. Unsolicited kisses are real risky in how they’re gonna make the recipient feel. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/231 "2023-09-11T16:14:05Z")
If you are in a bar and a local sports team wins and someone hugs without your consent do you think calling the police and pressing charges is appropriate? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/232 "2023-09-11T16:15:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If you are in a bar and a local sports team wins and someone hugs you do you think calling the police and pressing charges is appropriate? What if I’m _passed out drunk on the floor_, huh? didja think about that? Or what if the person hugging me is _my archnemesis_, or _my hated boss_? At some point these hypotheticals become ever so slightly less useful. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/233 "2023-09-11T16:17:16Z")
Truly…see your own post. Question still stands. Would you call the police on those people and send them to jail to face criminal charges? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/234 "2023-09-11T16:18:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Question still stands. It really doesn’t; it collapses under the weight of its own vagueness and irrelevance. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/235 "2023-09-11T16:18:59Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > > [@echoreply](#): > > > > To me, and I’m certainly not a 15 year old girl (but I did grow up in the 80s), the intent wasn’t meant as a blanket granting of consent to anyone who had a crush on her, but rather the expression of a fantasy, that if certain guys had a crush on her, it would be fun if they kissed her without asking. A “swept off her feet” fantasy. > > I was a 15 year old girl ( although slightly before the 80s) and I would say 1) that she was giving him permission to kiss her and 2) that she never would have said that to someone she didn’t want to kiss I totally agree. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > it’s no way to run a society. Yeah. We are in a much better place today. She was playing by the rules at the time, which were kinda broken. Today, it would be okay for her explicitly express sexual interest in you (a huge non-no at the time for “nice girls”) including initiating that kiss herself, either verbally or by physically inviting you to meet her extended lips. Not just with an ambiguous statement like what she actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/236 "2023-09-11T16:19:32Z")
It’s your own hypothetical. And you dodged the question. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/237 "2023-09-11T16:21:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It’s your own hypothetical. What the fuzzy space cadet hells are you talking about ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/238 "2023-09-11T16:22:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I have been in many crowds. Concerts, festivals, and so on. Played sports where contact happens and smacks on the back/butt happen. I have been in bars when a sports team has won and people are hugging all around…maybe even a MWAH kiss (in my case a few Bull’s championships and Cubs World Series). Hugging all around. Not groping. Not Frenching anyone within reach. Just general exuberance. > > I’d suggest if you (general you) are a person who is not ok with any of that then you do not put yourself in such places. If you do put yourself in such places then you have to accept the norm for that place. And I’d suggest that even in situation like that, some people are leaning into the action, and others are holding back, and you shouldn’t reach out towards those who aren’t into it. Consent doesn’t have to be verbal. Consent often isn’t verbal. One person reaches their arms out and the other joins them in an embrace – that’s totally and explicitly consensual. It’s usually not hard to tell who in the crowd WANTS a hug. As I said above, I DO frequent situations where strangers hug each other, and we all manage to negotiate it and not hug the minority who prefer to pass. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/239 "2023-09-11T16:23:03Z")
Wouldn’t the facing charges or not be determined by the authority receiving the complaint, and **then** would come the decision on jailing or not? Really, the incident triggering the thread is a case of what looks like an inappropriate, unwanted, unwelcomed trespass of personal boundaries, which the trespasser _refused_ to address in a context of social courtesy or labor relations, so, failing that, she escalates to the Law. You use the tools you are given. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/240 "2023-09-11T16:23:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What the fuzzy space cadet hells are you talking about > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What if I’m _passed out drunk on the floor_, huh? didja think about that? Or what if the person hugging me is _my archnemesis_, or _my hated boss_? This. What are you talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=13)