# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/281 "2023-09-11T19:58:52Z")
Fired yes. 1-4 years in jail? No. Does his rebuttal video change anyone’s mind? [Rebuttal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIkIHuaQswI) (starts at 0:23) ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/282 "2023-09-11T20:02:25Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > [snip] > > Now the Spanish female team has two events to celebrate. The World Cup and the departure of Mr. Rubiales. Congratulations! Excellent post, thank you! I learned about even more disgusting behavior the Spanish women’s team had to endure I didn’t hear about in non-Spanish media. Your post puts everything we’re discussing in the (im)proper context. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/283 "2023-09-11T20:09:51Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > Does his rebuttal video change anyone’s mind? > > [Rebuttal](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIkIHuaQswI) (starts at 0:23) I’m genuinely confused. Players laughing and chanting “Kiss! Kiss! Kiss!”–what does this even mean? How on earth does her teammates’ chanting “rebut” her very clear and unambiguous statements that the kiss wasn’t consensual? I really am having trouble connecting the dots here. ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/284 "2023-09-11T20:20:28Z")
This incident reminded me of the 2003 Oscars, when Adrien Brody grabbed Halle Berry and kissed her after winning Best Actor. It was without her consent and would absolutely be considered sexual assault by many of the posters here. Yet when I did a search for any contemporaneous discussion here I found only one poster who found it inappropriate. No one called it sexual assault. Interesting how quickly things change. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/285 "2023-09-11T20:35:13Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > No one called it sexual assault. Interesting how quickly things change. I agree, and I have changed too, hopefully for the better. We are getting woke fast, aren’t we? Woke isn’t bad, when you think of it in the right context. It is just another word for RESPECT (see → [Aretha Franklin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqGZjFnYnA)). Not being a jerk, it is called in the rules of this Board. Oh, bonus points for driving the right people crazy. Isn’t it like owning the reactionaries for the right cause? I still have a long way to learn and to go, don’t get me wrong. And I think the women in the Spanish national football team have something to teach me. > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Excellent post, thank you! No, I thank you and all those reading this for your attention. I think this affair is important and I hope it will be remembered in the future as one moment when things changed for the better. Although reading the comments in some of the links I and others posted I know there will be a backlash. Some people are really angry at the women. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/286 "2023-09-11T20:48:14Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > Several posters have stated that an unwanted kiss is a **sexual** assault and not a simple assault. Could those posters or others please elucidate why such a kiss is sexual in nature. Are all unwanted kisses sexual or could there be nonsexual kisses under certain circumstances? From the background I come out of any kiss on the mouth is sexual. A peck on the check between parent and child could be non-sexual, but then, mouth and lips are not involved. I realize this viewpoint is not universal and I speak only for myself. > [@Ynnad](#): > > A mouth-to-mouth kiss does not involve the genitalia, anus, buttocks, or secondary sexual characteristics of either party. So what? I consider a mouth to mouth kiss to be sexual in nature. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you get permission for every kiss you give? Does your niece or nephew explicitly consent to a kiss before you bestow one? Bright lines right? I come from a family where kisses between aunt/uncle and niece/nephew are neither expected nor done. You ask even the very young people “Do you want a hug?” before proceeding. And you don’t proceed if the other person says no. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/287 "2023-09-11T21:57:15Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I was a 15 year old girl ( although slightly before the 80s) and I would say 1) that she was giving him permission to kiss her and 2) that she never would have said that to someone she didn’t want to kiss I was a 15 year old girl in the 1960’s and I agree with both parts of that; and will add that I had been taught, and she may have been also, that either straight out asking a boy to kiss her or initiating the kiss herself would have been horribly “forward” and would have made her a brunt of very negative gossip. I hope that we’re past that now; but suspect that the change hasn’t reached all areas/all social groups. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Life involves risk, and I’m willing to risk that my nieces and nephews aren’t going to call the cops on me for a hug or peck on the cheek. Are you willing to risk that they’ll think of you, for the rest of their lives, as ‘that creepy uncle who kept hugging me when I didn’t want to be hugged’? Do they lean enthusiastically into the hug? then you’re fine. Do they pull away, back away, or stand there rigid while you hug them? Then back off! > [@Babale](#): > > an infant isn’t capable of any kind of concent at all. Well before they can talk, infants can try to pull themselves away or try to push somebody away or start crying when a person approaches them or handles them. I’ve seen quite small babies make it clear that they wanted to be held by one person and not by another. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/288 "2023-09-11T22:28:37Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Yet when I did a search for any contemporaneous discussion here I found only one poster who found it inappropriate. No one called it sexual assault. I found at least two, both of whom called it assault. > [@The Oscar Telecast: Very Nice Indeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oscar-telecast-very-nice-indeed/163717/109): > > I completely agree. I was disgusted by Adrien Brody. It did look like an assault, and was totally inappropriate. And the comment about the gift bag was nauseating. To me, Halle Berry did NOT look like she was enjoying the kiss. She locked shocked and upset to me. I don’t have it on tape, so I can’t watch that moment again (not that I would want to!) but IIRC she looked really upset and it took her a few moments to collect herself–by the time Brody was finished with his speech (and, btw, w… Although others were much more approving. > [@The Oscar Telecast: Very Nice Indeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oscar-telecast-very-nice-indeed/163717/8): > > I thought the best part was Brody planting a big one on Halle Berry. (I looooooved her gown!) The worst part was probably pulling the mike away from that group of guys who won one of the technical awards early on (I forget which one). It seems to me that the amount of time you get to say your thank-yous ought to be directly proportional to the number of people who’ve won the award. Very bad form to cut off the last guy like that. > [@The Oscar Telecast: Very Nice Indeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-oscar-telecast-very-nice-indeed/163717/24): > > I was so glad Renee Zellweger didn’t win. She always has that weird pinched-face look to her. I can’t stand it. Btw, I think Adrian Brody slipped Halle the tongue. hee hee. In case anyone’s interested, here’s an article looking back on the incident from 20 years later: > **[People are debating Adrien Brody's Oscars kiss with Halle Berry 20 years later](https://www.tyla.com/tv-and-film/halle-berry-adrien-brody-oscars-academy-awards-kiss-294812-20230310)** > > With Halle Berry presenting the 2023 Oscars, people are once again commenting on the 2003 Academy Awards when Adrien Brody kissed her without permission. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/289 "2023-09-11T22:39:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Although others were much more approving. 🤮 Nothing like reading old SDMB threads to make me thankful that society has changed and grown since then. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2023, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/290 "2023-09-11T23:24:12Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Ynnad](#): > > > > A mouth-to-mouth kiss does not involve the genitalia, anus, buttocks, or secondary sexual characteristics of either party. > > So what? > > I consider a mouth to mouth kiss to be sexual in nature. In the context of the OP we are talking about prosecution for a criminal offense. Most laws in the U.S. regarding sexual assault specify one or more of these things in the definitions of criminal sexual offenses. **HOWEVER** , this happened in Spain. It is the definition of sexual assault under Spanish law that matters. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/291 "2023-09-12T00:27:37Z")
As I understand it the video takes place on the bus right after the kiss happened. The victim is the lady with the huge smile holding up the picture of the kiss on her phone. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/292 "2023-09-12T00:42:09Z")
The only dots you’re connecting here are pretty bogus. A person’s reaction immediately after sexual assault is sometimes to try to make sense out of it in a way that isn’t traumatizing. These can be “that wasn’t so bad,” to “I maybe wanted it?” to “look at that asshole, ha ha, let’s laugh at him!” None of that means the sexual assault wasn’t bad, or that, once the adrenaline has worn off, it wasn’t traumatizing. Showing her grin doesn’t indicate that she was okay with what happened. Using it to discredit her later, very clear statements is, at best, deeply mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/293 "2023-09-12T01:11:29Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > As I understand it the video takes place on the bus right after the kiss happened. The victim is the lady with the huge smile holding up the picture of the kiss on her phone. What is your assertion? That she did not consider it to be assault at the time, but later changed her mind? ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/294 "2023-09-12T01:42:41Z")
For @Whack-a-Mole and anyone else who thinks that there’s no harm done grabbing a woman and planting one on them because you’re excited that your precious team won, please consider that according to the CDC, > **One in 4 women** and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. Don’t assume that your opinion matters. It doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/295 "2023-09-12T01:46:19Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > In the context of the OP we are talking about prosecution for a criminal offense. Most laws in the U.S. regarding sexual assault specify one or more of these things in the definitions of criminal sexual offenses. As you say, that is not universal. “Sexual assault” in other countries tend to be more generally understood. See my post up quite away about R v Chase and Canadian law of sexual assault. But to put it a different way: personally, the only mouth to mouth kisses I’ve been involved with have been sexual in nature, even if just mildly so. Here’s a quick poll: guys, would you kiss your sister on the mouth? your mom? your grandmom? I think most guys would say “eww, no” - because it’s a sexual gesture. At least, that’s what I would expect guys I grew up with to say. As @Broomstick has noted, different sub-cultures may have different rules. Here’s another question: if a six year old girl comes to mom and tells her that Uncle X has been kissing her on the lips, do you expect mom to laugh and say, “oh, he’s just being friendly”. Or do you expect mom to say “Whaaat?” Contact with lips in certain contexts is sexual in nature, just as contact with breasts or penises in certain contexts (eg medical exam) is not sexual. Context is everything, along with consent. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/296 "2023-09-12T02:28:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Showing her grin doesn’t indicate that she was okay with what happened. Using it to discredit her later, very clear statements is, at best, deeply mistaken. Yet again we see the patriarchy engage in victim blaming. “She doesn’t seem upset enough to me, she must have wanted it”. “Did you see what she was doing\* just before, she must have wanted it”. Fuck. That. \*In other contexts this may manifest as “did you see what she was wearing”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/297 "2023-09-12T05:58:03Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Interesting how quickly things change. 20 years is “quickly” to you? It’s an entire generation (and a couple of important relevant social movements) later. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/298 "2023-09-12T06:23:29Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > different sub-cultures may have different rules. In my own subculture, a _quick_ peck on the lips for mom was the norm, only up until your teens. Thereafter, the cheek. For other close relatives (dad, grandparents, aunts&uncles, older cousins, “aunties”) it was always the cheek. I was not a fan as a kid, and stopped around 7 or 8 - not because I saw it as sexual but because my own Mom was such a heavy smoker that even a quick peck was yuck! ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/299 "2023-09-12T07:04:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > We have a history of male bigots justifying anti-LGBT violence because they claim that even being in proximity to gay men or trans women is traumatizing to them; while (by projection and other toxic assumptions) a woman who rejects their sexual advances could only conceivably be explained by her being gay. Nope, you missed it again. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I know what I said and I know what I meant. Why do you find it so hard to fathom that a female athlete could also be a lesbian? It’s a perfectly normal part of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2023, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/300 "2023-09-12T07:11:58Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yet again we see the patriarchy engage in victim blaming. “She doesn’t seem upset enough to me, she must have wanted it”. “Did you see what she was doing\* just before, she must have wanted it”. > > Fuck. That. > > \*In other contexts this may manifest as “did you see what she was wearing”. The point is that instead of talking about what a great win the women’s team, here we are AGAIN talking about the antics of a man instead. Talk about stealing the spotlight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=16)