# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/341 "2024-01-01T19:28:28Z")
Here you can see it, [that was yesterday](https://youtu.be/RhRVPVbmX48?t=1287). It starts at 21:27, I think I linked to the right moment. Ms Hermoso is the one in the golden dress. I think it is remarcable that you don’t see her numerous tatoos at all (except a bit at the shoulders), she really wanted to appear serious and respectable. I don’t know whether the strikes are faster than Big Ben’s or not, maybe you can tell me. ETA: I timed it: 34 seconds. They must have slowed down since I was a child. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/342 "2024-01-01T19:33:12Z")
Growing up, it was 13 grapes in one minute at the strike of midnight. Not sure where we picked up that extra one — I was always told it was for extra luck. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/343 "2024-01-01T20:34:32Z")
I should not have read the coments below that clip: most were about how the presence of Jenni Hermoso (sorry I wrote her name wrong, not my only typo, I know…) is a shame, a scandal that has spoiled the retransmission forever, a sign of the ideological indoctrination that the government is forcing upon inocent Spaniards, cultural oppression… and she is making money at our expense because of a kiss, getting paid for that, we have had enough of her… you get the idea. Depressing. Ms Hermoso is being blamed for being the victim. Whatever she does or says is going to be held against her. The reactionary media are strong in Spain too, it is not just Mr. Murdock/Fox News in the USA. > [@Chingon](#): > > Growing up, it was 13 grapes Mhhh… Argentinian, perhaps? _Deme dos_? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/344 "2024-01-01T23:21:15Z")
I think to the extent we have that tradition here in Argentina (not very, I’ve heard of it but my family never did it), is the same number pf grapes as in Spain Of course our grapes are better…/jk ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/345 "2024-01-02T00:43:19Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Argentinian, perhaps? Nope. Just a strange family thing I think ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/346 "2024-01-02T01:05:30Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > Chewing is permitted, but you have to finish during the twelve seconds. > Today it is easier than in my childhood: they have seedless grapes! My mom used to peel and de-seed hers. We big boys of course scoffed at that and called it cheating. > Wow, there is even a page in English about that! > [Twelve Grapes - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Grapes) I learned about this tradition from - of all places - an episode of _Modern Family_. The Pritchett/Dunphys are in Palm Springs for New Years, and Jay winds up playing poker with Billy Dee Williams. At midnight, Gloria makes them both eat the twelve grapes, for luck. (The character, like her actress Sophia Vergara, is Colombian). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/347 "2024-01-02T01:47:16Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > I think to the extent we have that tradition here in Argentina (not very, I’ve heard of it but my family never did it), is the same number pf grapes as in Spain > Of course our grapes are better…/jk Apparently tiktak spread something like this- but got is wrong- so much so that many store ran out of grape Dec 31 locally. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/348 "2024-01-09T20:17:49Z")
I am from Spain. I have not read the thread although I can imagine the direction of most posts as they are probably in the same line as yours. I disagree with your view very strongly. It is not a matter of being “reactionary” (which is just name calling) but of understanding all this in its full context. She is a victim of her youth and inexperience but she is not a victim of sexual aggression in any way. Rubiales is a mafiosi who for many years used and abused his power but he was not taken down for that, he was taken down in a political power struggle that had little to do with that kiss. It is just ridiculous to think he would force himself like that in public if he knew it was not welcome. The video I have seen of that moment shows no attempt by her to pull back and there is much video of her in the following hours and days happy and celebrating. Only after political infighting in the factions of the government Podemos convinced her to claim she was assaulted and that is where her claim began. She had to choose sides in a fight and she chose the side she thought would come out on top. And she has been rewarded and will continue to be rewarded for that. She is not a victim. She is making good profit. The guy was a scoundrel but for other reasons unrelated to any kisses. Corruption in Spain is rampant and Rubiales was big in corruption, just like the rest of Spain, but he got kicked out because Podemos was in a power struggle with PSOE, not for any kissing. This is the equivalent of jailing Al Capone for tax cheating. Politics in Spain is a disgrace and every week they come up with some made up scandal to keep the masses distracted while the country looks more and more like Venezuela as the days pass. The government of Spain is a disgrace and all they do is put on these clown shows. In the meanwhile everything of any importance is getting worse. (God, I hate the board’s new interface.) ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/349 "2024-01-09T23:56:24Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > It is just ridiculous to think he would force himself like that in public if he knew it was not welcome. It would not be ridiculous in all circumstances. For example, if he believed himself to be in such a strong position that he could do what he wanted and not fear any consequences. For a non-Spaniard like myself, this is what his behavior and expression looked like to me. As for her reaction, for a young and inexperienced woman in a male-dominated culture, what the fucking hell did you expect her to do? You may be right about the power struggle being unrelated to the kiss, but I’m glad the public perception is that the kiss was the catalyst for his downfall. It needs to be said: such acts are not without consequences. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/350 "2024-01-10T01:22:07Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Rubiales is a mafiosi who for many years used and abused his power but he was not taken down for that And it _ **is** _ a problem that for the corrupt powerful it takes some sort of vulgar “scandal” in public opinion to take them down. OTOH it got you back here after 10 years, according to the software… so it’s working, isn’t it? Welcome back. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > You may be right about the power struggle being unrelated to the kiss, but I’m glad the public perception is that the kiss was the catalyst for his downfall. It needs to be said: such acts are not without consequences. And someone like Rubiales _ **should** _ be at the least aware that he has accumulated many enemies who will be looking for any opening to take him down. Nobody is ever so strong he has nothing to fear. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/351 "2024-01-10T01:35:09Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And it _ **is** _ a problem that for the corrupt powerful it takes some sort of vulgar “scandal” in public opinion to take them down. A problem that has a long history, for example the rape of Lucretia by the son of the king is credited with precipitating the fall of the monarchy in Rome. I’m sure there are even earlier examples (Pisistratus may be?) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/352 "2024-01-10T01:53:22Z")
I don’t think there’s anything major like that for Pisistratus in the historical accounts, although by his third tyranny he took a lot of young hostages from potential political rivals. Taking young people from their families certainly opens the door to sexual abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/353 "2024-01-10T02:13:23Z")
I first learned about Lucretia from her mention by Augustine in his book _City of God_. It seemed that for his time he had a progressive outlook on how folks should look at the victims of abuse. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/354 "2024-01-10T04:48:24Z")
All this, like many other “problems” are just lures, flags, to cover up the fact that they are taking the country in the direction of Venezuela. Pretty much every economic indicator has gotten worse. Things are getting very bad in Spain and all we get from the government is ideology, divisiveness and confrontation. There is very high unemployment and every year hundreds of thousands of young people, engineers, doctors, architects, are leaving Spain to find a better life elsewhere. Half million last year. Corporations are leaving the country. The people who remain are the less educated and the ones working in the public sector which is growing like cancer. The only jobs created are in the public sector, the government bureaucracy which is already a burden. This suits the government because it assures them votes. But small businesses are closing down and large businesses are moving abroad. That is the situation in Spain. Spain’s economy is rapidly falling behind and being surpassed by other countries, in Europe and elsewhere. The country is going broke and only surviving by issuing debt and handouts from the EU. It is unsustainable. Every economic indicator has gotten much worse but nobody is talking about this because they are talking about who kissed who. There is a terrible housing crisis. Rule of law was never too good as we never had a strong, independent , working judiciary but lately is has become totally inoperative. Squatters take over your home and not only will it take years to get them out but the owner HAS to pay for utilities. That is the kind of laws and system we have. It is chaos. The government has always controlled the judiciary but it is getting worse and worse. And the last defense of the individual against the power of the state is an independent and working judiciary. In America it is the courts who are putting a stop to Trump’s populist and illegal acts. In Spain we have a government doing exactly the same things and we have no judiciary to protect us. It is a puppet of the government. Spain is sinking. Young people have no future and are leaving in droves and the government controls the media directly or indirectly and controls that we talk about who kissed who. They are not the good guys. They are leading the country to disaster. It is very easy from outside to dismiss all this and talk about superficial things and that’s what our government wants but the country has centuries of history of civil wars and it looks like we may be headed that way again. We have become a banana republic and our only saving factor is the EU. If Spain were located in South America we be one more Venezuela or Colombia or Cuba or… You may now return to your regular conversation about who kissed who and where. I’m out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/355 "2024-01-10T16:53:15Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > It is very easy from outside to dismiss all this and talk about superficial things Nobody is dismissing anything. It is possible to have more than one discussion about Spain, and if you would like to have a thread focusing on the issues you have raised here, go ahead and make one. It is not reasonable of you to insist that all discussions that involve Spain can only be about the issues you want to discuss. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/356 "2024-01-10T17:26:34Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > It is very easy from outside to dismiss all this Are you somehow under the (mistaken) impression @Pardel-Lux, who you were initially replying to, was an _outsider_ to Spain? ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/357 "2024-01-10T17:36:12Z")
Not to mention, the whole wall of text reads like some convoluted attempt at victim shaming. She’s not really a victim, at best she’s a tool of other schemers, if not a manipulative opportunist. Sometimes the fact speaks for itself. We all saw the actual video. We all recognized it based on our experiences with how women are treated across many cultures and societies. “But you don’t understand Spain” seems like a terrible take on this. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2024, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/358 "2024-01-10T17:59:05Z")
You mention Venezuela three times in just two posts, I guess that is sign of admiration\*, but you forgot to mention José María Aznar’s role in that: > **[Lo que el PP no cuenta de Venezuela, Chávez y Aznar](https://www.elplural.com/politica/lo-que-el-pp-no-cuenta-de-venezuela-chavez-y-aznar_209953102)** > > El que fuera Presidente del Gobierno se posiciona a favor de Guaidó > **[Venezuela.- El PSOE recuerda que Aznar se reunió 14 veces con Chávez y que el...](https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-venezuela-psoe-recuerda-aznar-reunio-14-veces-chavez-gobierno-pp-le-elogio-le-vendio-armas-20071112172656.html)** > > El PSOE recuerda hoy en una nota interna que el ex presidente del Gobierno José María Aznar se reunió... \* No, it is not a sign of admiration, I know, it is a common scary trope among conservatives: _the socialists are turning Spain into a new Venezuela_ 😱 is a worn out topic that just makes me yawn 🥱 > [@sailor](#): > > I disagree with your view very strongly. So do I with yours. But I specially disagree with your tone. > [@sailor](#): > > I am from Spain. So am I, only, obviously, the other Spain. If no communication is possible at least don’t threaten with civil war again. I remember which side started the last one and what they did afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/359 "2024-01-12T15:06:29Z")
I genuinely thought you were French up til now because your name looked French to me. TIL otherwise. Good to know. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/360 "2024-01-12T15:16:52Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I genuinely thought you were French up til now because your name looked French to me Their name is a play on Lynx pardinus, the Iberian Lynx [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=19)