# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/41 "2023-09-09T20:58:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I think we shoudl wait until the sentence is decided. > > He was very wrong, it is correct to bring charges. I agree. There’s a big difference between a sentence of one to four years and a _potential_ sentence of one to four years. I’m going to assume the court will look at the crime and give out a proportionate sentence, like maybe some community service or mandatory counseling. But we shouldn’t just dismiss minor crimes as not worth bothering to enforce. Consider another crime; theft. And let’s say petty theft carries a potential sentence of one to four years. Now let’s say somebody shoplifts a soda from a convenience store. Should that person be sent to prison for one to four years? I’d say no. But that doesn’t mean we should rewrite the law and make it legal to shoplift anything with a value of three dollars or less. Sexual harassment should be a crime and should have serious penalties available. And the court system should look at specific occurrences of that crime and decide what punishment is suitable. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/42 "2023-09-09T21:15:50Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > To state the obvious, my opinion that this woman being kissed does not impress me as sexual assault certainly does not mean I favor women being raped. I feel equating the 2 is unfortunate. This is why some countries, such as Canada, have abolished the offence of « rape » and replaced it with « sexual assault » of various degrees. The prohibition is on assaults of a sexual nature, with the punishment varying with severity. Some sexual assaults that don’t involve p-in-v can be horribly traumatic for the victim (eg Jean Carroll). The emphasis is on the assault, because assaults of a sexual nature can be an assertion of dominance and control. The sexual nature of the assault just makes it worse. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/43 "2023-09-09T21:17:04Z")
Even if some of the women did consent to contact with him, I get the impression that he viewed that as largely irrelevant, that he did what he did without any sort of assessment of whether they were likely to be consenting. And maybe four years in prison is too much for a kiss. But we don’t know yet what he’ll actually be sentenced to. It might be less, and it might be much less. It’s certainly possible that he’ll get the sentence he deserves. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/44 "2023-09-09T21:18:54Z")
And with respect to post-game celebrations: has anyone here seen a case where a male coach of a winning team of men, especially a hockey or football team, has grabbed a player by the head and kissed the player on the lips? If you have, I’d love to see it on video. And if you haven’t ever seen something like that, doesn’t that help to show the issue here? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/45 "2023-09-09T21:34:14Z")
The thread title is a complete misrepresentation of what this is all about. It’s not about the appropriate criminal penalty for a single instance of abuse trivialized as “a kiss”. The reason for the massive outcry is that this was a very public instance of a pervasive problem. I haven’t seen anyone call for him to be imprisoned for 1-4 years, or at all. (Although it would hardly be a shock if it emerges that he has done other things that _do_ warrant that kind of criminal sentence.) The consequences people are generally demanding are that he should be fired, and that the culture of disrespectful macho sexism that has normalized such casual sexual abuse must change. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/46 "2023-09-09T22:42:35Z")
It seems like the thread title totally captures the situation, but perhaps not in the way the OP intended. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/47 "2023-09-09T23:03:36Z")
It is incredibly disingenuous for any man to equivocate this happening to him, to what women face when put in this hold. Like, shockingly tone deaf to the reality. Wow. The man knows it is non aggressive, the man knows he can easily pull away. There is no real threat. Any women in this clench knows exactly the reverse is true for her. This IS pure aggression, she CANNOT get free, and there is a VERY real threat. No man would be equivocating, if he was overpowered, in this fashion, forcibly kissed publicly by a gay man, 100% without his consent. He’d def think that was an assault! ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/48 "2023-09-09T23:11:42Z")
I don’t personally think it warrants criminal penalties, but this is not my decision to make and clearly there should be some consequences. If he has been suspended, then there have been. There will be people who think this is not enough, possibly for personal and political reasons or to make an example, especially as the suspension was for ninety days and these practices are said to be widespread, and the initial response was highly inadequate. There are also people who will state there are cultural factors and that sport can be emotional. It seems reasonable to take the wishes of those most directly involved into account. But surely some message has already been sent, probably for the better. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/49 "2023-09-09T23:34:48Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > My reaction is informed by my opinion that too much “sexual” activity has been criminalized. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/50 "2023-09-09T23:48:13Z")
Drag Queen Story Hour? ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/51 "2023-09-10T00:03:22Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It will help to have some context. These kind of sexual assaults have been much in news in Spain, where women struggle to get courts, men and society to NOT see ‘simple, short’ assaults as unimportant. > > Recently a young woman was assaulted and the perpetrator excused from consequences because the assault lasted ‘less than 10 seconds!’ > > A man put his hand down her pants, and male society/justice said, basically, ‘so short a time, doesn’t count!’. Women were understandably outraged. Many young women posted clips of a hand on their breast for a full 10 secs. Just to make their point, it was a whole campaign and everything. > > Spanish women are having their moment. They’ve suffered this shit a long, LONG time. They’ve more than earned it. > > This man did this on national tv, in front of everybody, right after grabbing his crotch! When called out, he immediately denied it was non consensual and totally tried to gaslight the victim. > > Because he is THAT secure that the patriarchy has his back. This context is quite enlightening (even with the first assault having occurred in Italy, not Spain). Much appreciated! ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/52 "2023-09-10T00:19:48Z")
Consent presents a very troubling nuisance for a certain vocal subset of men. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/53 "2023-09-10T01:43:46Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m surprised that I’m the only person who has been on the receiving end of a kiss where the other person put their hands on the sides or back of my head and pulled me towards them. …just because people are choosing not to share potentially traumatic experiences here doesn’t mean they haven’t had them. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > It really surprises me that people view a relatively brief kiss on the lips All sexual assaults are “relatively brief” in the grand scheme of things. It’s the lack of consent and the power dynamics that matter here, not the duration of the assault. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/54 "2023-09-10T02:24:45Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Michael kissing Fredo like that (while holding his head very firmly) is obviously dominance behavior. It is not sexual in any erotic sense, but I’m pretty sure it’s not usual in Sicilian culture for male relatives to kiss like that. It strikes me as psychologically similar to a certain type of situational homosexuality observed in prison inmates - sexual abuse as dominance behavior. You probably know this already, but this was “the kiss of death,” which, according to popular culture, is the Mafia signal that the recipient is guilty of betrayal and is now marked for death. The firm holding of the recipient’s head is to keep him from moving his head back or away so that the intention is clear. It’s not, strictly speaking, dominance behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/55 "2023-09-10T02:44:58Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > One way to view it from the athlete’s perspective is to imagine that a male coach kissed you like this after a win. You would probably be okay if the male coach hugged you vigorously and maybe even kissed you on the cheek (especially if you’re in Europe), but likely you would be offended if he grabbed your face and kissed you on the lips. If perhaps you had a really, really close relationship with the coach maybe you’d be okay with it, but if you’re just a random player and the coach kissed you on the lips, you’d probably be offended. And you might feel even more awkward if you knew the coach was attracted to men. In that case, you might wonder if he kissed you because he was caught up in the celebratory moment or because of sexual attraction. The way the coach kissed that athlete, I would say it was more of the latter than the former. That’s a useful rule of thumb for men who have difficulty grasping when consent is required. Would you want another man to do this to you? If the answer is no, then you shouldn’t do it to a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/56 "2023-09-10T06:52:50Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Have none of you ever engaged in sport - or other organized “team” activities? You’ve never seen people hug, kiss, slap butts following a victory or after a performance? Have you? Did anyone in a position of authority over your team ever kiss you on the lips after a victory? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/57 "2023-09-10T06:58:13Z")
Right, with the addendum: On a team where it was not just one’s casual after-hours personal athletic hobby but one’s full-time employer and primary vocation and source of income? The persistent minimization of this assault — and it is, absolutely, an assault — in this thread is baffling and horrifying to me. I once again invite **Dinsdale** to celebrate a workplace achievement by grabbing a female subordinate’s head and kissing her hard, and report back the results. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/58 "2023-09-10T07:29:21Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > And in this case, it’s not even the player’s coach. It’s the president of the sporting organization. I think I started the references to coach. My bad. They’re not able to fire him because of a law preventing it when the president’s remaining term of office is less than one year. I scanned the NYT article and didn’t see any mention of that. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I think we shoudl wait until the sentence is decided. Smartest thing said so far in this thread (with all due respect for some of the eloquent posts upthread). A full-scale investigation is in order, because it looks like there’s been some abuse going on for some time, and we should wait to see if any new facts emerge. That is, we should wait before we draw conclusions. Discussing it is fine, of course. @Pardel-Lux, the legislation you posted was passed by Mexican authorities, not European. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/59 "2023-09-10T08:08:27Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > …The firm holding of the recipient’s head is to keep him from moving his head back or away so that the intention is clear. It’s not, strictly speaking, dominance behavior. That’s a strange conclusion. I think physically controlling someone to give them the terrifying message “I am going to kill you for betraying me” is the epitome of dominance behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/60 "2023-09-10T08:49:18Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I think it ridiculous to characterize that kiss in that context as “clearly sexual in nature.” What if she’s a lesbian and found that kiss violating? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=4)