# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/61 "2023-09-10T09:01:38Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > What if she’s a lesbian and found that kiss violating? Why on earth is her orientation relevant to whether she was assaulted? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/62 "2023-09-10T09:31:07Z")
I’d like to hear the answer to this as well. Do tell us, which sexual acts should NOT have been ‘criminalized’? You brought it into this discussion, and you’re the one defending and equivocating this highly sexist/criminal behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/63 "2023-09-10T09:32:31Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > the legislation you posted was passed by Mexican authorities, not European. Oh, dear! I was not paying attention, it seems. Here is the Spanish Law, now I double checked, translated with DeepL again, cursory checked: > **[BOE-A-2022-11589 Ley 15/2022, de 12 de julio, integral para la igualdad de...](https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-2022-11589)** > > BOE-A-2022-11589 Ley 15/2022, de 12 de julio, integral para la igualdad de trato y la no discriminación. With article 24, for equality in cultural activities and sports: > ##### Artículo 24. Actividades culturales y deportivas. > > 1. En el desarrollo de cualquier actividad cultural o deportiva se respetarán el derecho a la igualdad de trato y el respeto a la dignidad de la persona, evitando toda discriminación por alguna de las causas previstas en la ley. > > 2. Las administraciones públicas darán apoyo a la creación y la difusión de contenidos y estudios que contribuyan a la toma de conciencia en el ámbito cultural sobre la discriminación en todas las formas y expresiones que recoge la presente ley. > Article 24. Cultural and Sports Activities. > > 1. In the development of any cultural or sports activity, the right to equal treatment and respect for the dignity of the person shall be respected, avoiding any discrimination on any of the grounds provided by law. > > 2. The public administrations shall support the creation and dissemination of contents and studies that contribute to raising awareness in the cultural sphere of discrimination in all the forms and expressions covered by this law. > ##### Artículo 31. Actuación administrativa contra la discriminación. > > 1. Cuando una autoridad pública, con ocasión del ejercicio de sus competencias, tenga conocimiento de un supuesto de discriminación de los previstos en esta ley, deberá, si es competente, incoar el correspondiente procedimiento administrativo, en el que se podrán acordar las medidas necesarias para investigar las circunstancias del caso y adoptar las medidas oportunas y proporcionadas para su eliminación o, en caso de no serlo, comunicar estos hechos de forma inmediata a la Administración competente, de acuerdo con lo establecido en las leyes administrativas. > Article 31. Administrative action against discrimination. > > 1. When a public authority, on the occasion of the > the exercise of its competences, has knowledge of a case of discrimination of those foreseen in this law, it shall, **if it is competent,** initiate the corresponding administrative proceeding, in which the necessary measures may be taken to investigate the circumstances of the case and to adopt the measures for its elimination or, if they are not, to communicate these facts immediately to the competent Administration, in accordance with the provisions of the administrative laws. (**bolding mine: this is why the ruling of the TAD (Tribunal Administrativo del Deporte) stating that the offense commited by Mr. Rubiales was “serious” but not “very serious” is so relevant**) > ##### Artículo 32. Del Ministerio Fiscal. > > 1. Las secciones especializadas en delitos de odio y discriminación de las fiscalías provinciales promoverán y coordinarán, en su ámbito respectivo, las actuaciones penales dirigidas a la investigación y persecución de comportamientos discriminatorios. > > 2. Las administraciones públicas podrán dar traslado al Ministerio Fiscal de cualquier hecho o actuación de que tengan conocimiento en el que se haya acreditado trato discriminatorio y del que, en su caso, pudiera derivarse responsabilidad penal. > > 3. Los miembros del Ministerio Fiscal recibirán de manera obligatoria formación especializada en relación con los colectivos amparados en la presente ley, de acuerdo con las directrices fijadas por la Fiscalía General del Estado. > Article 32. The Public Prosecutor’s Office. > > 1. The sections specialized in hate crimes and discrimination of the provincial prosecutor’s offices will promote and coordinate, in their respective areas, the criminal proceedings aimed at the investigation and prosecution of discriminatory behavior. > > 2. The public administrations may refer to the Public Prosecutor’s Office any fact or action of which they are aware in which discriminatory treatment has been accredited and from which, if applicable, criminal liability may arise. > > 3. The members of the Public Prosecutor’s Office shall receive mandatory specialized training in relation to the groups covered by this law, in accordance with the guidelines set by the Attorney General’s Office. But then there is Art. 48 Sanctions, where only fines are mentioned, no prison sentences are mentioned, so I guess there is another law which applies in this case. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/64 "2023-09-10T10:58:29Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Have none of you ever engaged in sport - or other organized “team” activities? You’ve never seen people hug, kiss, slap butts following a victory or after a performance? Was the hug preceding the kiss OK, but the kiss was not? > > I think it ridiculous to characterize that kiss in that context as “clearly sexual in nature.” The point here is the relationship between the people concerned. The Man was the head of Women’s football in Spain and the woman a female footballer. This is clearly an abuse of power by a man who feels that his status allows him to get away with whatever he wants. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/65 "2023-09-10T12:01:58Z")
Well, I disagree with much of what y’all say, but I know enough to stop digging once I’ve accomplished little other than encouraging a good many people to think less of me than they likely did before. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/66 "2023-09-10T12:35:35Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > once again invite **Dinsdale** to celebrate a workplace achievement by grabbing a female subordinate’s head and kissing her hard, and report back the results. Surely you’re not equating the serious environment of a courtroom to the frenzied activity of a sports arena? Tell us how do you find the decorum at football stadiums matches the decorum in a courtroom? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/67 "2023-09-10T12:37:35Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@nelliebly](#): > > > > The firm holding of the recipient’s head is to keep him from moving his head back or away so that the intention is clear. It’s not, strictly speaking, dominance behavior. > > That’s a strange conclusion. I think physically controlling someone to give them the terrifying message “I am going to kill you for betraying me” is the epitome of dominance behavior. That’s exactly what i was thinking. Also, while hugs are usually clearly consensual (typically one person leans in with open arms, then the other person closes the gap and the hug commences. Although i have a growing number of friends who lead with “would you like a hug?”) i would find a non-consensual hug in a very public setting less upsetting than being forcibly kissed. So yes, a guy kissing a subordinate on the lips is worse than the same guy hugging the same woman. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/68 "2023-09-10T12:43:26Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Surely you’re not equating the serious environment of a courtroom to the frenzied activity of a sports arena? …surely sexual assault is sexual assault, whether it happens in the serious environment of a courtroom or the frenzied activity of a sports arena? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/69 "2023-09-10T13:02:34Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Have none of you ever engaged in sport - or other organized “team” activities? You’ve never seen people hug, kiss, slap butts following a victory or after a performance? Was the hug preceding the kiss OK, but the kiss was not? Sound like the same logic men use to say it really wasn’t a microaggression when I put my hand on her shoulder in the meeting or her hip in the hallway. Always a reason why it is OK in that situation. You’re a lawyer right? Let’s say your firm just one a huge case - like SCOTUS Landmark case here. A coworker that you don’t want a kiss from, grabs and holds your face and kisses you on the lips. Still feeling it’s OK because big win and all that. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/70 "2023-09-10T13:06:06Z")
@Banquet_Bear An unwanted celebratory kiss you’re equating with sexual assault? Seems to minimize the experiences of people who have suffered from a sexual assault, not an unwanted kiss on a podium, dance floor or wherever men want to advance an unwanted lip smack when they’re celebrating with women. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/71 "2023-09-10T13:07:45Z")
> [@chela](#): > > wherever men want to advance an unwanted lip smack when they’re celebrating with women. The very fact that you suggest this is something men do only with women makes it sexual. Anyway, there are minor and major sexual assaults. I was groped on the subway by a stranger. Definitely a sexual assault, but pretty minor. I moved to the other end of the car and got off at the next stop. Being groped or grabbed by a coworker would be worse, because I’d worry about him doing it again. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/72 "2023-09-10T13:14:27Z")
> [@chela](#): > > An unwanted celebratory kiss you’re equating with sexual assault? …an unwanted kiss, yep. The “celebratory” part isn’t relevant at all. > [@chela](#): > > Seems to minimize the experiences of people who have suffered from a sexual assault, Seems to me, you are minimizing the experiences of the person who was assaulted on stage. > [@chela](#): > > not an unwanted kiss on a podium, dance floor or wherever men want to advance an unwanted lip smack when they’re celebrating with women. Perhaps men should stop sexually assaulting people on the podium, dance floor, or anywhere else that some may consider is socially acceptable to assault them. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/73 "2023-09-10T13:22:02Z")
Yeah now it’s assault no matter how minor? ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/74 "2023-09-10T13:23:12Z")
> [@chela](#): > > now it’s assault no matter how minor? Yes (plus more characters) ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/75 "2023-09-10T13:25:25Z")
To me assault implies a serious threat of harm ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/76 "2023-09-10T13:25:40Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > BTW - is anyone able to link the specific language of the applicable law? Now I think I got it: The relevant article of the Spanish Penal Code, explained and commented: > **[Artículo 178 del Código Penal – Conceptos Jurídicos](https://www.conceptosjuridicos.com/codigo-penal-articulo-178/)** > > Te explicamos el artículo 178 del Código Penal español, que hace referencia a las penas por el delito de agresión sexual. Some bits translated (the original is in the link, it’s only four paragraphs long, followed by some commentary): 1. Anyone who performs any act that infringes on the sexual freedom of another person without that person’s consent shall be punished by imprisonment for a term of one to four years as a perpetrator of sexual assault. Consent shall only be understood to exist when it has been freely expressed through acts which, in view of the circumstances of the case, clearly express the will of the person. 2. In any case, acts of sexual aggression are considered sexual aggression when they are carried out using violence, intimidation or abuse of a situation of superiority or vulnerability of the victim, as well as those performed on persons who are sensory deprived or whose mental situation is abused and those that are carried out when the victim’s will is annulled for any reason. 3. Not relevant here, IMO. 4. The sentencing body, reasoning it in the sentence, and provided that there is no violence or intimidation, nor that the victim’s will is annulled for any reason, and provided that the circumstances of article 180 do not concur, may impose a prison sentence half as long as stated above **or a fine of eighteen to twenty-four months** , taking into account the minor nature of the act and the personal circumstances of the guilty party (bolding mine). I believe that point 4 shows that for “minor assaults” the tribunal may skip prison altogether (not just grantig probation, which is usually given for sentences under two years for first time offenders) substituting prison with a fine. The reference to the duration between 18 - 24 months means the fine shall be proportional to the income or wealth of the perpetrator, who still will be considered guilty, just the sentence will be lighter. Sorry it took a while and excuses for the mess with the Mexican law. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/77 "2023-09-10T13:28:41Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > an unwanted kiss, yep. The “celebratory” part isn’t relevant at all. Of course it is. It provides the context. They’re in a stadium where fans and players are kissing and hugging on each other in celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/78 "2023-09-10T13:30:14Z")
> [@chela](#): > > To me assault implies a serious threat of harm The definition of “assault” will vary from jurisdiction, but the traditional common law definition, given at the beginning of the thread, is “an intentional application of force to another person without that person’s consent”. Harm may be an aggravating factor for a greater offence, such as “assault causing bodily harm” in some jurisdictions. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/79 "2023-09-10T13:32:45Z")
> [@chela](#): > > They’re in a stadium where fans and players are kissing and hugging on each other in celebration. So the law of assault doesn’t apply in that context? ETA: are you saying that if my team wins, that gives me authority to turn to any woman in the stands, grab her head, and kiss her whether she wants it or not? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/80 "2023-09-10T13:34:49Z")
Thanks for the law. It seems clear that forcibly holding her head so he can kiss her violates that law. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=5)