# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/81 "2023-09-10T13:41:20Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Yeah now it’s assault no matter how minor? …sexual assault? I don’t think you get to decide whether or not it was “minor” or not. > [@chela](#): > > Of course it is. It provides the context. It seems to miss a lot of the context, IMHO. “Well noted pervert, Luis Rubiale, who has a questionable history when it comes to treating women with disrespect, forced a player to kiss him” arguably also provides context. > [@chela](#): > > They’re in a stadium where fans and players are kissing and hugging on each other in celebration. Those fans and players were kissing and hugging with consent. And if there wasn’t consent? That was wrong too. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/82 "2023-09-10T13:47:42Z")
> [@chela](#): > > To me assault implies a serious threat of harm If somebody stole $5 from you, would you be ok not calling it theft because ‘theft implies a loss of significant value?’ Moreover, your comment seem to imply that only physical harm is relevant. An unwanted touching can lead to serious psychological and emotional harm- why wouldn’t that be sufficient? ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/83 "2023-09-10T13:48:45Z")
A well known pervert? So taking into account his prior behaviors every hug and kiss he offered was probably sexual in nature. Cut off his balls! String him up by the hamstrings the dirty pervert! ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/84 "2023-09-10T13:51:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@chela](#): > > > > To me assault implies a serious threat of harm > > The definition of “assault” will vary from jurisdiction, but the traditional common law definition, given at the beginning of the thread, is “an intentional application of force to another person without that person’s consent”. In post 76 I quote the relevant article of the Spanish Penal Code and it includes in its second paragraph “sensory deprivation” (they mean drugs, for instance when drinks are spiked) and abuse of “mental situation” (after a shock, when unconscious after an accident, when completely drunk or during surgery/dentristryperformed with anesthesia). I believe the Spanish law is written in such a way as to be as broad as possible in its scope, trying to prevent loopholes. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/85 "2023-09-10T13:52:43Z")
I think, for some of us males who don’t seem to get it, they should try thinking of it this way. The other half of the population is, on average, made up of people who are significantly bigger, stronger, and heavier than you, and an unknown percentage are essentially hunting for someone like you to penetrate sexually, or _at least_ (and this is absurd btw) only groped or hugged or kissed. And, every time you go out, you have to be aware of your surroundings, in terms of that population and potential threats. In this context there’s nothing funny, quaint or cute about a forced kiss from someone, even if they are not someone who is essentially your CEO. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/86 "2023-09-10T13:59:06Z")
> [@chela](#): > > A well known pervert? So taking into account his prior behaviors every hug and kiss he offered was probably sexual in nature. Cut off his balls! String him up by the hamstrings the dirty pervert! …do you want to add context or not? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/87 "2023-09-10T13:59:31Z")
> [@chela](#): > > So taking into account his prior behaviors every hug and kiss he **offered** was probably sexual in nature. (My bold) Why are you minimizing his behavior? He did more than offer a hug and kiss. He forced one. And it doesn’t have to be sexual in nature to be improper. Really? A man can slap a woman, since it’s not sexual and has no likelihood of causing “a serious threat of harm”? ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/88 "2023-09-10T14:00:17Z")
You added the context that he’s a well known pervert. That’s all the context needed right? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/89 "2023-09-10T14:00:29Z")
> [@chela](#): > > To me assault implies a serious threat of harm So if a man gently fondle a woman’s breasts, without her consent, that’s not an assault? ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/90 "2023-09-10T14:01:19Z")
Fine with me if you say forced. So be it, ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/91 "2023-09-10T14:01:32Z")
> [@chela](#): > > @Banquet_Bear An unwanted celebratory kiss you’re equating with sexual assault? > > Seems to minimize the experiences of people who have suffered from a sexual assault, not an unwanted kiss on a podium, dance floor or wherever men want to advance an unwanted lip smack when they’re celebrating with women. Assault is a continuum, not a binary The fact an attempted rape that a woman (or man, for that matter) successfully fights off/escapes/evades is typically not as traumatic as a completed rape does not eliminate attempted rape from “sexual assault”. Likewise, spitting on someone is not in the same category as punching someone hard enough to render them unconscious, but the spit is still legally an assault. A forced kiss is, yes, on the “lighter” end of the assault/sexual offense spectrum but it is still an assault. It’s unwanted physical contact. It is done without consent. And while it might be no big deal to the perpetrator to the receiver it really could be quite upsetting and even traumatizing. I realize that most of us live in societies where men forcing their attentions on women has long been seen as acceptable, and that women are supposed to just put up with cat-calls, rude comments, constant interruptions, and forcible touching of their body parts but can we please, please get away from that? I don’t know any men who would put up with the harassment that is a routine and daily part of life for most women. As we have seen in this thread, there is a _constant_ minimizing of women’s own experiences and feelings. YES - a forced kiss is a Bad Thing. In _any_ context. NO ONE should be expected to put up with unwanted physical contact with others simply because “it’s part of the job”. Yes, soccer is a contact sport and players, by being players, realize there will be collisions with other _players_ while playing the game. It should NOT be expected outside of the game itself, and certainly not between coaches/management/owners/other authority figures and players. Regardless of gender. > [@chela](#): > > Yeah now it’s assault no matter how minor? Yes. It’s a minor assault. I don’t think anyone is advocating jail time. But it is unacceptable behavior. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/92 "2023-09-10T14:03:48Z")
My quibble is equating this act of his as a serious sexual assault which the law may recognize as assault but not sexual? ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/93 "2023-09-10T14:03:59Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Fine with me if you say forced. So you don’t think that forcing yourself on somebody is improper? What if some guy came up to you and put you in a headlock and gave you a noogie? Don’t worry, he’s laughing when he does it. And despite the possible embarrassment, and maybe a little physical discomfort, you’ll be fine. A-ok? ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/94 "2023-09-10T14:05:02Z")
What are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/95 "2023-09-10T14:05:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > [@chela](#): > > > > not an unwanted kiss on a podium, dance floor or wherever men want to advance an unwanted lip smack when they’re celebrating with women. > > Perhaps men should stop sexually assaulting people on the podium, dance floor, or anywhere else that some may consider is socially acceptable to assault them. ^ This. Why the _hell_ do men get to “advance” an unwanted anything? What gives YOU the right to touch MY body in _any_ way at _any_ time without my consent? > [@chela](#): > > To me assault implies a serious threat of harm Why do we have to wait until escalates? Who are you to determine what my feelings/reactions are to your action? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/96 "2023-09-10T14:06:07Z")
> [@chela](#): > > My quibble is equating this act of his as a serious sexual assault which the law may recognize as assault but not sexual? Are you saying it didn’t have a sexual aspect? I’m not sure what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/97 "2023-09-10T14:06:10Z")
> [@chela](#): > > What are you talking about? You seem to want to discount this unwanted touching because it wasn’t going to cause serious harm, and wasn’t really sexual. So how would you respond if that happened to you? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/98 "2023-09-10T14:06:54Z")
> [@chela](#): > > It provides the context. They’re in a stadium where fans and players are kissing and hugging on each other in celebration. The fact that lots of other people are consensually hugging and kissing does not make it okay to force a kiss. It’s not my thing, but i have Facebook friends who attend actual orgies and describe them on Facebook. People are copulating all over the place. And there are VERY clear rules around consent, and how to initiate various activities, including kissing and back rubs. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/99 "2023-09-10T14:08:25Z")
Do you think they’d feel assaulted over an unwanted toe tickle? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/100 "2023-09-10T14:10:29Z")
nm, this is getting silly [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=6)