# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/101 "2023-09-10T14:10:57Z")
At the orgy? My understanding is “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/102 "2023-09-10T14:11:21Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@chela](#): > > > > What are you talking about? > > You seem to want to discount this unwanted touching because it wasn’t going to cause serious harm, and wasn’t really sexual. > > So how would you respond if that happened to you? I’d probably insult them regarding BO and onion breath then put tacks in their chair and staple shut the armholes o their jacket ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/103 "2023-09-10T14:12:00Z")
> [@chela](#): > > My quibble is equating this act of his as a serious sexual assault which the law may recognize as assault but not sexual? YOU are the one labeling this “serious”. Everyone else is saying it’s a _minor_ sexual assault. Slapping someone isn’t the same as a punch, one is more serious than the other, but they’re both assault. Stealing $5 is different than stealing $500,000 but they’re both theft. Grabbing a woman and forcing a kiss on her is sexual assault. It’s not as bad as rape, but it’s still an assault. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/104 "2023-09-10T14:13:03Z")
> [@chela](#): > > I’d probably insult them regarding BO and onion breath then put tacks in their chair and staple shut the armholes o their jacket So you’d retaliate? Some people do that by pursuing claims with law enforcement, or by filing legal actions. I don’t get why you are pushing back against this development. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/105 "2023-09-10T14:14:01Z")
To answer one question in the OP: yes, a forced kiss (especially when you have to hold the person’s head to do it) is generally worse than a full body hug. Hugs are something people genuinely do fairly often even to people they don’t know too well. That said, hugs should also be consensual. A celebratory kiss is not forced. Both parties want to celebrate. One person offers the kiss, and the other person reciprocates. There is no need to hold them down. Similarly a consensual hug won’t just grab someone, but offers the hug by putting your arms out. With celebratory actions involving two people, both need to participate. It’s not celebratory if you have to hold someone’s head to keep them from moving away. My first attempt at a kiss, the girl moved her head away because she wasn’t ready. ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/106 "2023-09-10T14:14:13Z")
No I would not call the cops over a nougie. You would? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/107 "2023-09-10T14:14:19Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Do you think they’d feel assaulted over an unwanted toe tickle? I sure as hell would feel assault over an unwanted toe tickle. I hate and loathe being tickled. I don’t want you touching any body part, including feet and toes, without my permission. I wouldn’t want you to gently rub my poor, tired, aching feet _without asking permission first_. Why don’t you understand that? ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/108 "2023-09-10T14:16:22Z")
Me too. But as @puzzlegal said in her comment about orgies, if you’re in a roomful of naked people sucking each other off if my toes gets tickled without consent in the process it could be construed as assault? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/109 "2023-09-10T14:18:58Z")
> [@chela](#): > > That’s all the context needed right? …you can see that “adding context” can add bias, right? “An unwanted kiss” is a relatively neutral statement. “An unwanted celebratory kiss” diminishes the fact that the player says there was no consent. “An unwanted kiss from a known pervert” is needlessly inflammatory. The additional context doesn’t help here. If you think that the fact that it was “celebratory” means this excuses a person from the rules of consent, then make that argument. But IMHO “no means no” _regardless_ of context. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/110 "2023-09-10T14:19:14Z")
Yes. It’s without consent. It’s respect for bodily integrity. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/111 "2023-09-10T14:19:46Z")
> [@chela](#): > > No I would not call the cops over a nougie. > > You would? I’m not sure, but it would be within the rights of somebody who was forcibly touched against their will to do so. _The point_ is that you ( and few others) would just accept it. You’ve said that you would respond with physical aggression. I might do the same; or, I might pack up and leave. And, yes, if a cop was standing around, I might complain and ask that they do something. But it would be an unusual action to just shrug and say “I wasn’t seriously hurt, and he was celebrating, so I guess there was nothing wrong.” Yet here, it appears that you feel that the woman should have done just that, in a situation where the offense was nationally televised. I think she’s well within her rights to claim that she was assaulted, and I think it is quite reasonable for him to be punished. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/112 "2023-09-10T14:21:32Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > ETA: are you saying that if my team wins, that gives me authority to turn to any woman in the stands, grab her head, and kiss her whether she wants it or not? As noted by another poster, that’s the EXACT logic we apply to that famous V-J Day picture. His team won, so we’re all cool with a little sexual assault. Frankly I’ve always found that photo pretty skeevy. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/113 "2023-09-10T14:22:11Z")
> [@chela](#): > > A well known pervert? So taking into account his prior behaviors every hug and kiss he offered was probably sexual in nature. Cut off his balls! String him up by the hamstrings the dirty pervert! I’d settle for making sure he’s never put in a position of authority over another woman. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/114 "2023-09-10T14:32:12Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > > [@Dinsdale](#): > > > > My reaction is informed by my opinion that too much “sexual” activity has been criminalized. > > Such as? > [@elbows](#): > > I’d like to hear the answer to this as well. Do tell us, which sexual acts should NOT have been ‘criminalized’? So would I. But since @Dinsdale doesn’t seem to be inclined to answer, I’m going to guess that he was trying to make the following points: 1. There is a middle ground between sexual (or “sexual”) acts which are perfectly okay and those which are (or should be) subject to criminal prosecution. 2. There are a significant number of acts which are criminalized but which should instead fall into this middle category. 3. This is, if not true of, then at least relevant to, the act being discussed in this thread. I can agree with #1. #2 might be true, but I’d have to see some examples and/or evidence that it is. #3 I do not think is true—I’m open to being convinced otherwise, but I don’t think anyone has so far done so. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/115 "2023-09-10T14:32:31Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Me too. But as @puzzlegal said in her comment about orgies, if you’re in a roomful of naked people sucking each other off if my toes gets tickled without consent in the process it could be construed as assault? Yes, it could. In that case, the punishment wouldn’t be a criminal charge, it would be that the assaulter wouldn’t be invited to any future orgies and would be socially shunned by the group that organized the orgies. My Facebook friend is mildly autistic and has trouble reading social signals (like the open arms that invite a hug) and his posts often were about all the opportunities he missed because he wasn’t certain the other party consented. And also, he has been shunned from some social circles because he misinterpreted stuff. He was often asking for advice on how to interact in these situations. (He’s not a close friend by any means, but i continued following him on Facebook for years because he got into such interesting situations. A completely different story was about the time he bought a retired city bus, fitted it as an RV, drove it from Philadelphia to SF, and then didn’t understand why people got upset that he parked a giant bus in front of their apartments…) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/116 "2023-09-10T14:36:42Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Well, I disagree with much of what y’all say, but I know enough to stop digging once I’ve accomplished little other than encouraging a good many people to think less of me than they likely did before. When a good many people are all telling you that same thing, you should stop and consider the possibility that maybe you’re the one who’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/117 "2023-09-10T14:49:56Z")
> [@chela](#): > > A well known pervert? So taking into account his prior behaviors every hug and kiss he offered was probably sexual in nature. Cut off his balls! String him up by the hamstrings the dirty pervert! Hyperbole and straw man arguments are so helpful when we discussing matters of bodily integrity and the law. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/118 "2023-09-10T14:55:23Z")
I am utterly shocked by guys here justifying this. How about this scenario - you are at the Super Bowl and your team just scored a touchdown on the last play to win. The guy next to your wife **grabs and holds her face** and kisses her on the lips - a kiss she doesn’t want. You OK with that? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/119 "2023-09-10T15:10:55Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Me too. But as @puzzlegal said in her comment about orgies, if you’re in a roomful of naked people sucking each other off if my toes gets tickled without consent in the process it could be construed as assault? Depends on the rules in force for the orgy. Not my scene, but such things are NOT complete anarchy. There really are rules about touching, sucking, fucking, etc. at a lot of group sex scenes. Any person at any time is allowed to say “I’ve had enough” and leave. If there is a particular thing you don’t want to do you are not compelled to do it. As an example: consenting to having a penis enter your vagina does NOT mean you are OK with a penis entering your anus and anyone desiring to do such a thing needs to _ask and get your consent first_. Otherwise, it’s not an orgy it’s a gang rape. If you can’t say “no” then you aren’t really free, are you? That doesn’t mean someone starting non-consensual toe-tickling is going to be arrested, but if they don’t stop when told to stop then they might be escorted out of the party They certainly won’t be invited to the next one. No means no, even at an orgy. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/120 "2023-09-10T15:16:29Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Yet here, it appears that you feel that the woman should have done just that, in a situation where the offense was nationally televised. And probably get slut-shamed for accepting that kiss. No wonder she got on the team; she’s making out with the President. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=7)