# When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844 "2023-09-09T16:48:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/141 "2023-09-10T18:06:35Z")
Yes, a motion of no confidence, and it can’t be applied in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/142 "2023-09-10T18:07:57Z")
I mean, what if he started coming to work 3 hours late every day, drunk. Are you really suggesting that he could not be fired? ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/143 "2023-09-10T18:08:12Z")
Did I say that? ETA: Oh, I think I see the misunderstanding. I’m saying that, according to that article, they can’t fire him for the kiss (and I wouldn’t swear that’s right, either). I wasn’t saying he can never be fired for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/144 "2023-09-10T18:14:10Z")
I suspect that the “motion of no confidence” thing is the mechanism for a routine replacement, if (say) the team were underperforming and they didn’t think he was doing a great job. There will surely be other mechanisms to fire him for misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/145 "2023-09-10T18:22:35Z")
To some degree his _not_ getting fired might be the worse for him. There are likely a significant some who would feel being fired was punishment enough, but if did not lose his job would more supportive of jail time, as he does deserve, and deterrence requires, _some_ punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/146 "2023-09-10T18:23:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Forcing an unwanted kiss on somebody, as several other posters have explained to you, is a form of sexual assault, and nobody should do it. And I think that is the key - the force. If I’m on a second date and getting good vibes and slowly lean in and kiss her on the lips and she didn’t back away or punch me in the gut and let me do it even if she didn’t want to is that sexual assault? Maybe, maybe not, maybe some middle ground. But what if I grabbed her face and **restrained it** for that kiss she didn’t want. I don’t see how that’s not sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/147 "2023-09-10T18:31:17Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Because some people seem dismissive of her claim that she was assaulted. How is it not relevant? It’s assault either way, but perhaps more understandable why she didn’t chose not to ignore it. You are the only one who has brought up the question of her orientation. I have no idea why you think it’s relevant. It sounds like you’re projecting a psychology analogous to the “gay panic” defense onto people, as though what matters is whether a sexual advance is made by the preferred or non-preferred gender, rather than whether there is non-consensual _assault_. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/148 "2023-09-10T18:42:02Z")
Maybe it seems like a strange conclusion if you go strictly by the scene in _Godfather II_? I don’t know. I was thinking that in Sicily, il bacio della morte is administered to the designated assassin, not his target, as a means of sealing the fate of the betrayer. In turn, that practice is thought to have its origins in the Biblical story in which Judas kisses Jesus to signify _to the mob_ that this man was their target. In neither case is the kiss a signal to the one marked for death, so I have trouble seeing how in these instances, this would be dominance behavior. _Godfather II_, however, portrays the KOD as a message _to Fredo_ that he is going to be killed, which could put a different spin on its intent. I think, though, that il bacio della morte is traditionally given on the cheek, not the mouth. If you read or [watch the Senate testimony](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldQQfPowgjY&t=473s) of mobster hitman Joseph Valachi, for instance, it sounds like the Kiss of Death delivered to him in prison by mob boss Vito Genovese was a kiss on the cheek. That is, he said, “He grabbed my hand and gave me a kiss. So I turned around and gave him a kiss on the other side…to make him understand I was smart to him.” If the KOD is traditionally delivered on the cheek, would that make it more or less likely to be dominant behavior? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/149 "2023-09-10T18:48:47Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Seems to minimize the experiences of people who have suffered from a sexual assault As a multiple rape survivor: you don’t speak for me, and wanting appropriate punishment here does nothing to minimize _my_ experience tyvm. I say throw the book at the creep. This _was_ sexual assault ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/150 "2023-09-10T18:53:01Z")
You never entered my mind your experiences are your own. Don’t let my experiences color your own Tyvm @MrDibble ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/151 "2023-09-10T19:05:14Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Smartest thing said so far in this thread (with all due respect for some of the eloquent posts upthread). Well, thank you. > [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I believe that point 4 shows that for “minor assaults” the tribunal may skip prison altogether (not just grantig probation, which is usually given for sentences under two years for first time offenders) substituting prison with a fine. Interesting. But some court ordered counseling is clearly in order also. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/152 "2023-09-10T19:28:31Z")
No means no. IMO, ideally anything less than a very enthusiastic yes (which doesn’t have to be verbal) means no. If you physically restrain somebody in order to kiss them on the lips, you should really know that you don’t have their consent. Is it as ‘bad’ as rape? IMHO no. Is it sexual assualt? hell yes. Should he be punished? certainly. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/153 "2023-09-10T19:43:28Z")
> [@chela](#): > > your experiences are your own. Exactly - so don’t even try to use my experience (or that of any other sexual assault survivor) as cover. Speak only for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/154 "2023-09-10T19:53:41Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > 1. There is a middle ground between sexual (or “sexual”) acts which are perfectly okay and those which are (or should be) subject to criminal prosecution. > > 2. There are a significant number of acts which are criminalized but which should instead fall into this middle category. > > Can you give us concrete examples of what you think fits into these two categories? At the moment, it’s pretty abstract. Well, no, I can’t, at least not for #2. I did say “#2 might be true, but I’d have to see some examples and/or evidence that it is.” As for #1, I didn’t have any specific examples in mind. And I hesitate to offer any, because I don’t think that’s relevant to the thread and I don’t want to hijack it. In the context of this thread, I wasn’t trying to make a point of my own, but rather to clarify what I thought @Dinsdale’s point might be. But it does seem obvious to me that there are some forms of bad behavior for which the appropriate response is not criminal prosecution but something else—from merely shrugging it off (at least in the case of a one-time honest mistake or misunderstanding), to a verbal reprimand, to being shunned and/or fired. And again, I do not mean to imply that this is true of the incident that this thread is about. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/155 "2023-09-10T20:46:11Z")
> **[Spanish FA president Rubiales resigns over Hermoso kiss](https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/66637879#:~:text=Luis%20Rubiales%20has%20resigned%20as,in%20Sydney%20was%20not%20consensual)** > > Luis Rubiales resigns as president of the Spanish Football Federation following criticism for kissing Jenni Hermoso after the Women's World Cup final. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/156 "2023-09-10T21:16:19Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You are the only one who has brought up the question of her orientation. I have no idea why you think it’s relevant. That doesn’t mean it’s not relevant. It just means you don’t understand why it might be relevant. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/157 "2023-09-10T21:27:31Z")
In his [statement](https://elpais.com/descargables/2023/09/10/8815c377a55685d4f3f97dff4998d477.pdf) (it’s a PDF), he complains that it’s unfair, that he and his family have suffered ruthless persecution and mistruths, that he must think about what’s best for Spanish soccer, that **the truth will prevail** (his boldface)…and nary a mention of the player or what he did. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/158 "2023-09-10T21:32:02Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > When called out, he immediately denied it was non consensual and totally tried to gaslight the victim. > > Because he is THAT secure that the patriarchy has his back. You’re right, the patriarchy is still there. He didn’t just criticise her and deny her comments. First, the Spanish soccer federation put out a press release, supposedly including a statement from the player that she did consent to the kiss. When she denied it again, and said that she did not agree with the statement, the federation stated that they would sue her for her “lies”. And when around 80 players said that they supported her and would not play again for the federation unless there were changes at the top leadership, the federation said that they would sue those players, too. And in one article, which I read earlier but can’t find now, when he made his speech to a largely male leadership group of the federation, accusing her of lying, there were cheers. Looks like the patriarchy is still there, but may be in for a bit of a fight with modern values. > **[Spanish football federation threatens to sue Jenni Hermoso over kiss ‘lies’](https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/26/spain-football-federation-threatens-to-sue-protesting-female-players)** > > Governing body says it will take ‘necessary legal action’ against female players protesting over Luis Rubiales kiss scandal > **[Spanish football federation threatens legal action against star player in...](https://www.politico.eu/article/spanish-football-federation-threatens-legal-action-against-player-kiss-controversy-rubiales/)** > > Federation charges ‘lies’ over Women’s World Cup incident as football boss Luis Rubiales refuses to step down in sexism scandal. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/159 "2023-09-10T21:56:27Z")
That is good. The statement is whiny, but it’s his way of having the last word, and it won’t stick. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844/160 "2023-09-10T22:04:57Z")
Oh my God, that’s way creepier than just the still photo of the forced kiss. I have no idea how i would react if a guy leapt into my arms and ground his crotch against me, but i would sure as hell feel assaulted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-kiss-merit-1-4-years-in-jail-spanish-soccer/989844.md?page=9)