# When does a therapist break confidentiality? RE: Stephen Collins **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 8, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709 "2014-10-08T00:40:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boogly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Boogly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boogly)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/1 "2014-10-08T00:40:04Z")
It has been reported that Stephen Collins has admitted to molesting children and told a therapist what he had done. After doing a quick search it seems to me that he should have been reported when he brought this up. > **[Confidentiality in Clinical Psychology](https://www.guidetopsychology.com/confid.htm)** > > Confidentiality in psychological treatment. > [@](#): > > Mandated Reporting Statutes in CA: > > Child Abuse: CA Penal Code § 11164-11174.4; 288; 261-269, Child Abuse: CA Welf. & Inst. Code § 18951 ff. In respect to minors, a psychotherapist is mandated to report non-accidental injury inflicted by others; sexual abuse; unjustifiable mental suffering (as in a young child witnessing domestic violence); neglect; cruelty; statutory rape (minor under 16 and other 21 or older, even if consensual); lewd and lascivious conduct (minor under 16 and other 10 years older, even if consensual); consensual sexual contact between minors (where one is 14 years of age and the other is under 14 years of age). > > Note that the mandate is only in respect to information that arises from within a psychotherapy situation; it doesn’t apply to something witnessed in a grocery store, for example. Also, the intent of the law is to protect children presently in danger; no report would be made regarding an adult who tells about having been abused as a child—unless this adult tells the psychotherapist that the abuser (a) has abused someone else who is still a child or (b) has current access to other children. 1. Is there a reason that this would not be reported? Are there situations where the mandate does not apply? 2. Will the therapist face any repercussions if he did not report the molestation? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/2 "2014-10-08T00:42:20Z")
I’m sure it varies state by state, but I don’t know by how much. If you are an immediate threat to yourself or others they report that. I was under the impression that was about it. Issues like posing a potential threat to children or the elderly, I don’t know. I also don’t know about past crimes where the statute of limitations is expired. If a 70 year old man admits to molesting a 5 year old when he was 12 (58 years ago), does that get reported? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/3 "2014-10-08T01:01:49Z")
The articles I saw about this didn’t mention anything about his therapist not reporting the admissions. TMZ claims to have a tape recording, but they don’t say where it came from, only that his wife did tape him in the session on the advice of her lawyer. Do you have something that says the therapist did not report this? ETA: Rereading your OP I don’t see you saying it wasn’t reported. Looks we’ll hear a lot more about this though. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/4 "2014-10-08T01:09:56Z")
I believe there was already an investigation into Collins behavior (which is what spurned the counseling sessions and divorce), so I’m not sure the counsellor would need to report a crime the cops were already aware of. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/5 "2014-10-08T02:25:49Z")
It varies a lot from state to state , and it’s not necessarily all that easy to figure out what is required unless you have actually taken training intended for mandatory reporters in that state . For example, in some places a mandatory reporter is only mandated if a child comes before them in a professional capacity. In others, they are mandated when either the child or the perpetrator comes before them in a professional capacity. In some, any perpetrator results in a mandatory report while in others only abuse or neglect perpetrated by a parent ,parental substitute or other person regularly in the household gets reported. In some states it is very clear that the purpose of the mandatory reporting laws is to protect children rather than to punish perpetrators and therefore reports are not accepted regarding incidents in the past where there is no current danger (for example, the abuser was a former stepfather with whom the child has no contact) or where the child has since turned 18. In some states the mandatory report is made to law enforcement while in others it is made to a child protective agency (CPS). From what I’ve read about this case, Collins admitted in 2012 to molesting an 11 year old relative of his first wife. They were apparently divorced in 1978 so presumably the molestation happened prior to that date. There’s no indication that Collins was a parental substitute or a regular part of the girls household. If the therapy session happened in NY, the therapist would \*\*not \*\*have been obliged to report it. In fact , the NY child abuse registry would not have accepted the report if the therapist tried to report it because by 2012 there was no child to protect- the abuse happened decades ago. So why is NYPD investigating? Because in most states, there is a difference between what _must_ be reported to child protective services and what _can_ be reported to the police. Although I’m not at all sure how accurate that website is (since it isn’t anything official, just something written by one psychologist) it does mention the intent of the California law > [@](#): > > Also, the intent of the law is to protect children presently in danger;\* no report would be made regarding an adult who tells about having been abused as a child\*—unless this adult tells the psychotherapist that the abuser (a) has abused someone else who is still a child or (b) has current access to other children.(emphasis added) which suggests that in the writer’s view the therapist was not mandated to report under California law ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/6 "2014-10-08T16:09:45Z")
I may be misunderstanding what has happened here … but was’t it that Collins’ wife surreptitiously recorded the session(s) without either Stephen Collins’ or the counslor’s knowledge. And that the wife’s tape is what TMZ is in posession of. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/7 "2014-10-08T16:23:34Z")
Just as an additional point of information, [Faye Grant](http://www.eonline.com/news/586267/stephen-collins-estranged-wife-faye-grant-had-no-involvement-whatsoever-with-alleged-tape-s-release-to-media) (Collins’ wife) is now saying that she did turn the tape over to the authorities in 2012, and that she had nothing to do with its release to TMZ. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2014, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/8 "2014-10-08T17:05:49Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I believe there was already an investigation into Collins behavior (which is what spurned the counseling sessions and divorce)… I think you mean spurred. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/9 "2014-10-09T07:04:37Z")
Yeah, it was the wife, not the therapist, is my understanding. Whether the therapist knew the session was being taped or not might have some bearing. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/10 "2014-10-09T14:14:05Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > I may be misunderstanding what has happened here … but was’t it that Collins’ wife surreptitiously recorded the session(s) without either Stephen Collins’ or the counslor’s knowledge. And that the wife’s tape is what TMZ is in posession of. Between spousal privilege, medical privilege, and wiretapping laws, is that tape admissible in any way? I suppose a prosecutor would argue that since there was a third party (the therapist) there, the spousal privilege doesn’t apply, and since there was a third party (the wife) there, the medical privilege doesn’t apply, but that seems, well, heading towards the definition of chutzpah. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/11 "2014-10-09T14:21:44Z")
California recognizes both the marital testimonial privilege (you _don’t have to_ testify against your current spouse about any matter) and the confidential marital communications privilege (you _may not_ testify against a present or former spouse regarding confidential communications made during the marriage) but neither applies to anything you say in the presence of a third party - and certainly not to a recording. However, a surreptitious recording does not defeat the psychotherapist-patient privilege, except to the extent that the privilege does not apply if the patient’s “mental or emotional condition [is such that he may be] dangerous to himself or to the person or property of another and that disclosure of the communication is necessary to prevent the threatened danger.” ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/12 "2014-10-09T15:06:40Z")
Could under federal or state law the therapist sue the wife a/ for personal intrusion in recording the therapist without assent and b/ for recording a private therapy session ? Both of which will have hugely bad effects on the therapist’s reputation and future business. Priests might find their salving business dropping off amazingly if the authorities were allowed to surreptitiously bug the confessional. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/13 "2014-10-09T15:12:05Z")
It’s a [federal crime](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2511), but there is no corresponding private cause of action I’m aware of. It’s also a crime [in California](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=630-638) and there is also a private cause of action. ETA: Those laws are not specific to recording private therapy sessions. It’s a crime because it’s interception of private oral communication generally. The therapist might also have some sort of action for tortious interference in a business relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/14 "2014-10-09T15:39:02Z")
Did we ever determine if the therapist knew? Perhaps the wife and therapist were working together to get the confession on tape. I recorded my therapy sessions for my own purposes, but my therapist knew all about it. (And I was so incredibly glad I did, since she turned out to be suffering from a raging narcissistic personality disorder and is sicker than sick and violates confidentiality like it’s nothing… and I have it all on tape. I might have lost my mind dealing with it if I didn’t. That’s all years back, not an active situation…) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/15 "2014-10-10T12:54:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > California recognizes both the marital testimonial privilege (you _don’t have to_ testify against your current spouse about any matter) and the confidential marital communications privilege (you _may not_ testify against a present or former spouse regarding confidential communications made during the marriage) but neither applies to anything you say in the presence of a third party - and certainly not to a recording. Ahem: > [@Ca Evidence Code 1012](#): > > 1. As used in this article, “confidential communication between patient and psychotherapist” means information, including information obtained by an examination of the patient, transmitted between a patient and his psychotherapist in the course of that relationship and in confidence by a means which, so far as the patient is aware, discloses the information to no third persons **other than those who are present to further the interest of the patient in the consultation** , or those to whom disclosure is reasonably necessary for the transmission of the information or the accomplishment of the purpose for which the psychotherapist is consulted, and includes a diagnosis made and the advice given by the psychotherapist in the course of that relationship. Emphasis added. > [@Farrell L. v. Superior Court](#): > > The question here is whether communications made by a patient to other persons participating in a group therapy session come within the psychotherapist-patient privilege. The parties do not cite nor has our independent research uncovered a case on point. In our view, the other participants in a group therapy session are “those who are present to further the interest of the patient in the consultation … or the accomplishment of the purpose for which the psychotherapist is consulted…” (Evid. Code, § 1012.) The language of Evidence Code section 1012 plainly indicates that communications made by patients to persons who are present to further the interests of the patient comes within the privilege. “Group therapy” is designed to provide comfort and revelation to the patient who shares similar experiences and/or difficulties with other like persons within the group. The presence of each person is for the benefit of the others, including the witness/patient, and is designed to facilitate the patient’s treatment. Communications such as these, when made in confidence, should not operate to destroy the privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-a-therapist-break-confidentiality-re-stephen-collins/700709/16 "2014-10-10T13:37:57Z")
I’m not sure what you’re pointing out here. I said the marital privileges would not apply but the psychotherapist-patient would.