# When does historical chronology break down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580 "2023-04-12T13:57:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/21 "2023-04-13T13:38:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another fun one is that the greatest authors in the English and Spanish language both have the same birthdate No, it is the other way around: they died on the same date, but on different days, in April 1616. The 23rd of April is still celebrated in Spain and particularly in Catalonia as Day of the Book and Sankt George’s day as per the Catholic Calendar. > [@JohnT](#): > > Pretty sure the statute of limitations have passed on that whole Caesar thing, so you should be safe. 😉 Just warning that in Germany there is no statute of limitations for murder. That is how they got [Erich Mielke](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Mielke), the last Stasi Chief, after the fall of the wall: for a murder he commited in the 1930s. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/22 "2023-04-13T13:40:14Z")
Well, I think he has the excuse that the Roman Empire no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/23 "2023-04-13T16:16:09Z")
Also, saw some flagstone floor stones in an old church - people used to be buried under the stone floor of some churches. The engraving showed one baby who dies before it was born - since for some record keepers, IIRC the new years started in April (as it does for some accountants, still.) So using a recorded date from centuries ago, you have to be sure they meant that January of year A or B. Baby born in November, died in January same year. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/24 "2023-04-13T16:59:26Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Incidentally there’s a woo theory that several centuries were simply invented out of whole cloth: [Phantom time conspiracy theory - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis) > > Needless to say, there’s tons of hard evidence that this simply couldn’t have happened. Weird. Not only that the phantom time hypothesis conspiracy theory is weird, but that around the same time [Anatoly Fomenko](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko) came up with his own bizarre conspiracy that a lot of history was invented in a 7-volume thesis [New chronology: _History: Fiction or Science?_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_chronology_(Fomenko)). Amongst it’s claims: > Fomenko is one of authors of a concept that manipulates historical chronology. It is known as [New Chronology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko)). Fomenko claims that he has discovered that many historical events do not correspond mathematically with the dates on which they are supposed to have occurred. He asserts from this that all of ancient history (including the history of [Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece), [Rome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), and [Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt)) is just a reflection of events that occurred in the [Middle Ages](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) and that all of Chinese and Arab history are fabrications of 17th- and 18th-century [Jesuits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus). > > He also claims that [Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) lived in the 12th century A.D. and was crucified on [Joshua’s Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua%27s_Hill); that the [Trojan War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War) and the [Crusades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) were the same historical event; and that [Genghis Khan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan) and the [Mongols](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire) were actually Russians, that the lands west of the [Thirteen Colonies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Colonies) that now constitute the [American West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_West) and [Middle West](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States) were a far eastern part of “Siberian-American Empire” prior to its disintegration in 1775, and many other theories, that contradict the conventional historiography. As well as disputing [written chronologies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source), Fomenko also disputes scientific dating techniques such as [dendrochronology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology) and [radiocarbon dating](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating) (see [here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating#Carbon_exchange_reservoir) for an examination of the latter criticism). His books include _Empirico-statistical Analysis of Narrative Material and Its Applications_ and _[History: Fiction or Science?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History:_Fiction_or_Science%3F)_. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/25 "2023-04-13T17:12:20Z")
Which rather illustrates just how much of what we know would have to be wrong to break down historical chronology. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/26 "2023-04-13T17:31:11Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If you’re referring to the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar, it was 10 days that had to be skipped. George Washington was born February 11, 1732 O.S. and unlike most people, changed it to February 22 after the changeover to keep the actual day – say, so many days after the Winter Solstice – the same and sacrifice the calendar date. I imagined him rolling over in in his grave when Washington’s Birthday – the holiday – was made the 3rd Monday in February to float around the actual date, then heaving a sigh of relief when it was made Presidents’ Day and his name was removed all together. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/27 "2023-04-14T11:44:06Z")
Here’s the Master’s column on the subject: > **[Did the middle ages not really happen?](https://www.straightdope.com/21344084/did-the-middle-ages-not-really-happen)** ---
**Author:** ![brutus44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@brutus44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brutus44)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/28 "2023-04-14T14:48:06Z")
As if on cue, this article was published yesterday: [https://www.science.org/content/article/marking-time-cosmic-ray-storms-can-pin-precise-dates-history-ancient-egypt-vikings](https://www.science.org/content/article/marking-time-cosmic-ray-storms-can-pin-precise-dates-history-ancient-egypt-vikings) It turns out linking ancient calendars to modern ones isn’t so easy: > For instance, Dee has long hoped to moor the floating timelines of ancient Egypt’s pharaohs to our modern calendar. Radiocarbon dating has pegged the Egyptian chronology to within a couple hundred years; scientists have tried to use ancient observations of known astronomical events, such as star and planet alignments, to narrow dates further. But timelines remain blurry. Egypt’s Old Kingdom era, for example, encompasses dozens of pharaohs who reigned from approximately 2700 to 2200 B.C.E. “The calendrical dates are not even really known to the century,” Dee says. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/29 "2023-04-14T17:49:32Z")
Although the implication is in most posts here, I want to take the time to loudly recognize and congratulate the legion of historians, theologians, archaeologists, astronomers, dendrochronologists, and other experts who have spent enormous amounts of time over many centuries trying to precisely date events and to reconcile the dates of those events with modern dating systems. Getting ancient dates right didn’t just happen. People dedicated their lives to inventing and improving techniques. This may seem obvious, but it seldom gets said this bluntly. Having put in countless hours tracking down events in history myself, I know how exacting and tedious such work can be. I salute my betters for making my work possible. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/30 "2023-04-14T18:35:12Z")
Hear hear! Or more crudely: > Time. Nature’s way of making sure everything doesn’t all happen at once. 😁 ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/31 "2023-04-14T19:41:41Z")
> [@brutus44](#): > > It turns out linking ancient calendars to modern ones isn’t so easy: Between each kingdom in Egypt there was a time where foreigners overran the kingdoms and created chaos and instituted foregn kingships. It wouldn’t be surprising that some years got dropped. Also note that some pharoahs are either ambiguous, or their successors tried to erase evidence of their existence. Tut’s dad did a Henry VIII on the temples and their huge assets, trying to convert everyone to worship the Sun God Aten instead. No surprise, when he died it’s not clear who took over until Tut was old enough, but they did try to destroy any traces of the competing religion after restoring the old temples. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/32 "2023-04-14T20:16:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Nobody knows _exactly_ which day the 34th of Frumbblebum in Mesopotamia in roughly 3500 BC was. > > In many cases, we do, because we have astronomical observations recorded in that calendar. And according to [this article](https://www.science.org/content/article/ancient-eclipses-show-earth-s-rotation-slowing) in Science, the records are detailed enough to show how much Earth’s rotation rate is slowing: > The oldest event in the catalog, a total solar eclipse that occurred in 720 B.C.E., was observed by astronomers at a site in Babylon (now modern-day Iraq). But, working backward, today’s astronomers would have predicted that the eclipse should have been seen a quarter of a world away, somewhere in the western Atlantic Ocean. The discrepancy means Earth’s rotation has gradually slowed since the 8th century B.C.E. Overall, [Earth’s spin has slowed by about 6 hours in the past 2740 years](http://rspa.royalsocietypublishing.org/lookup/doi/10.1098/rspa.2016.0404), the team reports today in the Proceedings of the Royal Society A. That sounds like a lot, but it works out to the duration of a 24-hour day being lengthened by about 1.78 milliseconds over the course of a century. I find that mindblowing and I love that people think and calculate those things through. But, alas, the records do not go back to the 34th of Frumbblebum in Mesopotamia in roughly 3500 BC but only to 720 B.C.E. Still impressive. On the other hand, errors are more often made at the moment of the event: nobody really knows when Cervantes died, we have agreed to say it was the 23 of April 1616, but it may have been one or two days before. Some scholars claim that he actually died one day before and that what was recorded was the day he was buried ([cite](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_Cervantes#Muerte_y_tumba_de_Cervantes), in Spanish). Wikipedia states that he died on the 22nd in the Spanish and the English versions, but “on the 22nd or the 23rd” in the German one. I say the 23rd, because it is St. George’s day, my patron saint and the patron saint of Catalonia. I know it is not a compelling reason. But it is a good day to give [a book and a rose](https://sobrehistoria.com/por-que-el-dia-de-sant-jordi-se-regala-un-libro-y-una-rosa/) (another cite in Spanish) as a present to someone you like. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/33 "2023-04-14T20:26:45Z")
In all of recorded history there are a few unequivocal astronomical signposts. No debate there. Which lets us clearly make a reliable comparison between the various calendars extant _at the time_ that a) included mentioning the event, and b) those mentions survived until today to be read. That does not imply we can then link every calendar used everywhere since then to today’s calendar via an unbroken chain of rock-solid reliable conversions. Darn cool modern science could detect unequivocal evidence of that slowing in the records. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/34 "2023-04-14T20:32:54Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > And according to [this article](https://www.science.org/content/article/ancient-eclipses-show-earth-s-rotation-slowing) in Science, the records are detailed enough to show how much Earth’s rotation rate is slowing: There are some astronomers and other scientists that specialize in this sort of “found data”. One of my old professors has written a number of papers based on the observational fact that the Solar System still exists (under some models, it would have fallen apart by now), and a bunch more based on radio transmissions from the Viking probes on Mars: Not from the actual data the probes were sending back in their radio transmissions, but from the radio transmissions themselves. (aside: @Pardel-Lux , is your avatar an Iberian lynx? I think I’ve seen that picture in a word problem in my algebra textbook, about the dwindling population.) ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/35 "2023-04-14T20:42:13Z")
Yes, it is. The Iberian lynx (_Lynx pardinus_) is called [Pardelluchs](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardelluchs) in German, which I have transformed into Pardel Lux (same pronunciation). Because it is a beautiful animal and it was on the verge of extinction when I adopted that moniker. It has recovered a bit since then, now I am afraid that if I change something the population will dwindle again. Supersticious magical thinking, I know, but better err on the side of caution, I say. What your old professor did is cool! (And when I read Viking probes on Mars I first pictured a bunch of guys with horned helmets probing the soil on Mars, laughed and saw what you really meant). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/36 "2023-04-15T18:46:40Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > I first pictured a bunch of guys with horned helmets probing the soil on Mars, laughed and saw what you really meant As did I. My neck still hurts from being hurled forward 1,200 years. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/37 "2023-04-15T19:30:30Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > If you’re referring to the changeover from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar, it was 10 days that had to be skipped. > > 11 days for those countries that converted later like the Soviet Union. Russia arrived 12 days late to the 1908 London Olympics due to discrepancies between the calendars. [https://www.si.com/.amp/extra-mustard/2013/12/30/the-extra-mustard-trivia-hour-when-a-calendar-defeated-russia-in-the-1908-olympics](https://www.si.com/.amp/extra-mustard/2013/12/30/the-extra-mustard-trivia-hour-when-a-calendar-defeated-russia-in-the-1908-olympics) But conversion was never uniform > [@](#): > > the switch didn’t go too smoothly. First of all, it required that ten days be skipped in order to align the dates and the stars correctly. Second, not everyone made the change-over at the same time—in fact, it took centuries. Sweden made its transition slowly over forty years, from 1700 to 1740 (and screwed it up, resulting in [history’s first and only February 30th](http://nowiknow.com/february-30th/)). The British Empire (the U.S. included) didn’t switch until September of 1752. Greece, the last nation to switch (of course they were), did so in 1923. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/38 "2023-04-15T21:18:49Z")
Another important factor is how widespread the calendar. I suppose that we can consider the same calendar - with changes - was used from Julian times to today, and across enough of known world that it’s unlikely everyone forgot whether it was Thursday or Friday. (I don’t recall hearing any disputes about this sort of confusion of days) let alone which year it was. If France or Italy got trashed, Coonstantinople and Spain robably still remember it was Thursday the Ides of March. Perhaps even the extended Greek settlements of Hellenistic times would spread their version of the calendar far enough to keep it on track. OTOH, the calendar of Egypt or Assyria might easily become disconnected from it’s base time, so to speak, if the entire kingdom were overrun and all the higher echelon administrative apparatus trashed by invaders. I wonder how far back the Chinese calendars could go reliably, since they have a very widespread empire for much of their history. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/39 "2023-04-15T22:08:01Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > OTOH, the calendar of Egypt or Assyria might easily become disconnected from it’s base time, so to speak, if the entire kingdom were overrun and all the higher echelon administrative apparatus trashed by invaders. I wonder how far back the Chinese calendars could go reliably, since they have a very widespread empire for much of their history. As someone else mentioned, if they mentioned things like solar eclipses or planet conjunctions, it would nail things down. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2023, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580/40 "2023-04-16T02:41:50Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > It was 11 days when Great Britain changed in the 18th century. By the 20th century, when the Soviet Union (also Bulgaria and Greece) converted, it was 13 days. After the year 2100, you’ll need to add 14 days. So, in trying to understand the issue, I see that the Julian calendar was problematic because it had a leap year every four years. Except that threw me, because I thought that was what we had now. Well, I learned yet another new thing today. Under our “modern” Gregorian calendar, we have a leap year every 4 years, except when it’s an end of century year, in which case it’s only a leap year if it’s divisible by 400. So, the year 2000 was a leap year. The year 1900 was not, and 2100 is our next skip in the pattern. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-historical-chronology-break-down/982580.md?page=3)