# when does life begin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 26, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597 "2008-10-26T02:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![goodma82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@goodma82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goodma82)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/1 "2008-10-26T02:21:20Z")
I appreciate Cecil’s attempt at simplifying the question and avoiding an ethical conclusion…but here are a couple of things to consider, fact-wise: 1) life is a continuum – the ovum and sperm are no less alive apart than they are together as the fertilized egg (i.e. the embryo) 2) the egg is fertilized in the fallopian tube a few days before implantation and at this stage has an extra set of chromosomes – the polar body; this is extruded only after fertilization and if retained can lead to genetic mutations 3) if the soul enters the embryo at fertilization, does it also split when twins are made? * * * Link to column: [When does human life begin? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2817/when-does-human-life-begin) ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/2 "2008-10-26T13:05:14Z")
Hi, and welcome to the board! It’s been awhile since I last studied meiosis, but isn’t the polar body a separate haploid cell, already divided from the ovum? ::scrapes rust off memory banks:: “Life” and “alive”, I think, are less objectively discernable conditions than value judgments or philosophical constructs, much like “soul”. ---
**Author:** ![david\_42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@david\_42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/david_42)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/3 "2008-10-26T13:07:15Z")
If one was to read the Christian Bible, the answer is simple & would probably shock 99.999% of people who think they have read the Bible, including Popes. Genesis 2:7 “And God breathed into the form the breath of life and man became a living soul.” No breath, no soul, no person. A surprising number of religions concur with this position and in many legal jurisdictions, air in the lung sacks is considered proof of a live birth. I’m more inclined to the brainwave concept, but that would disallow so many things that walk on their hind legs. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/4 "2008-10-26T13:31:52Z")
> [@david\_42](#): > > If one was to read the Christian Bible, the answer is simple & would probably shock 99.999% of people who think they have read the Bible, including Popes. > > Genesis 2:7 “And God breathed into the form the breath of life and man became a living soul.” > > No breath, no soul, no person. A surprising number of religions concur with this position and in many legal jurisdictions, air in the lung sacks is considered proof of a live birth. > > I’m more inclined to the brainwave concept, but that would disallow so many things that walk on their hind legs. Metaphor. Anyway, what I really want to know is what the hell is going on in the picture. This is probably the least parseable illustration I have seen here. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/5 "2008-10-26T14:46:36Z")
> [@flight](#): > > Metaphor. Anyway, what I really want to know is what the hell is going on in the picture. This is probably the least parseable illustration I have seen here. The couple just finished coitus and the doctor is immediately congratulating them as the OB normally does after giving birth: Congratulations, it’s a blastocyte! Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/6 "2008-10-26T15:26:29Z")
**goodma82** , welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, we’re glad to have you here. When you start a thread, it’s helpful to other readers if you provide a link to the column you’re discussing. Yeah, it’s on the front page today, but in a week or so it will fall back into the massive archives, so providing a link saves searching time… and helps keep us all on the same page. No biggie, you’ll know for next time, and, as I say, welcome! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/7 "2008-10-26T16:00:56Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Hi, and welcome to the board! > > It’s been awhile since I last studied meiosis, but isn’t the polar body a separate haploid cell, already divided from the ovum? ::scrapes rust off memory banks:: There are three polar bodies for every eventual ova. The first two are lost before ovulation, but the ovulated body still has 46 chromosomes. Only after it’s fertilized by a sperm does it pinch off it’s final polar body with half the chromosomes from the nucleus, and then the sperm’s haploid\* nucleus meets up with the ova’s haploid nucleus. > [@](#): > > Like every other cell in the body, sperm precursors in the testicle have forty-six chromosomes. But in the process of sperm production, the chromosomes are reduced to half the normal number by a process called meiosis. So when sperm leave the testicle, they have only twentythree chromosomes. The eggs also have forty-six chromosomes until the very moment the sperm penetrates an egg and initiates fertilization. Fertilization cannot possibly occur unless the egg’s forty-six chromosomes can be reduced to twenty-three. The moment the sperm penetrates the egg, half of the egg’s chromosomes must be extruded. Then two half sets of chromosomes, one from the male, and one from the female, merge into a new individual with the normal number of fortysix chromosomes. > > \ > > After the LH surge, the first meiotic division occurs, but this division does not reduce the number of chromosomes. This is an equal division in which fortysix chromosomes are still left within the egg nucleus. Actually, it is more complex than this, and I will explain it in detail in chapter 12. The “first polar body” is a small, divided nucleus that is pinched off from the main body of the egg prior to ovulation, about thirty hours after the LH surge. The extrusion of the first polar body from the egg shows that the first meiotic division has occurred under the influence of LH, meaning that the egg is now prepared to undergo the all-important second meiotic division. Many college biology students get confused by these two stages of meiosis. In the first division, all the chromosomes partly divide but do not split completely. In the second division, they actually complete the split. The egg is thus prepared during meiosis for the entrance of a sperm. [http://www.enotalone.com/article/4944.html](http://www.enotalone.com/article/4944.html) There is a very controversial theory being bandied about that sometimes that final polar body is fertilized by another sperm and develops as well, leading to “half-twins”. Critics point out that the polar body is extremely undersized in comparison to the ova, and that it wouldn’t have enough nutritional cytoplasm to keep the blastocyte alive long enough to implant. \*And, of course, we all remember that the H. In Jesus H. Christ stands for “Haploid”, since he only had DNA on his mother’s side, right? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/8 "2008-10-26T16:58:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Critics point out that the polar body is extremely undersized in comparison to the ova, and that it wouldn’t have enough nutritional cytoplasm to keep the blastocyte alive long enough to implant. Of course, we are talking about a presumably rare occurence, here. It could just happen in those cases where the polar body happens to be unusually large for some reason. As to the OP’s point, yes, all of the precursor germ cells are alive, but before fertilization, it’s harder to identify them as a separate organism. Once fertilization occurs, you have something with a distinct genome from either parent, which could be justification for calling it a separate life, rather than just a part of one of the living parents. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/9 "2008-10-26T18:06:10Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > The couple just finished coitus and the doctor is immediately congratulating them as the OB normally does after giving birth: Congratulations, it’s a blastocyte! > > Jonathan OK, but what is the dark thing that may or may not be in the turkey’s hand? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/10 "2008-10-26T20:37:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course, we are talking about a presumably rare occurence, here. It could just happen in those cases where the polar body happens to be unusually large for some reason. Could be, sure. I just wanted to mention why it’s not a widely accepted theory yet. And, really, I can’t quite figure out why it would be a big deal, except that finding out what we thought was impossible isn’t is always kinda cool. “Half-twins” wouldn’t be genetically any closer than fraternal twins as we currently understand them, since half the genes went with the egg and half the “polar body” and two different sperm fertilize - it’s not like they get \*identical \*genes from the maternal meiotic division. They’d go on to form two placentas and two amniotic sacs, and be indistinguishable from fraternal twins, wouldn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/11 "2008-10-26T21:03:05Z")
Am I nine month older than I thought I was then? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/12 "2008-10-26T21:09:32Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > “Half-twins” wouldn’t be genetically any closer than fraternal twins as we currently understand them… In fact, now that I think on it, they’d be slightly \*less \*“related” than regular siblings, since they can be counted on not to have \*any \*of the same maternal genes. If Mom had, for a very simple example, one B and one b gene, then under normal circumstances, more than one kid might get a B gene from two different eggs. But because the B and b split at this last meiosis, “Half-twins” would always get different ones, one B and the other b, one A and the other a, etc. Sorry, this is way off-topic now… ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/13 "2008-10-26T21:10:19Z")
> [@flight](#): > > OK, but what is the dark thing that may or may not be in the turkey’s hand? Wouldn’t it make more sense to “parse” a [stork](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stork#Childbirth) from the picture? And, _ **flight** _, I agree that this illustration is especially murky. - “Jack” ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/14 "2008-10-27T02:42:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Am I nine month older than I thought I was then? That’s when the Chinese celebrate your life-start, I believe? Conception, as opposed to birth? ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/15 "2008-10-27T02:49:33Z")
Life begins when the youngest child gets his own apartment. ---
**Author:** ![Powers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Powers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Powers)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/16 "2008-10-27T20:46:32Z")
> [@True Blue Jack](#): > > Wouldn’t it make more sense to “parse” a [stork](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stork#Childbirth) from the picture? No, because Slug always depicts Cecil as a turkey. Powers &8^] ---
**Author:** ![goodma82](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@goodma82](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goodma82)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/17 "2008-10-27T23:05:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of course, we are talking about a presumably rare occurence, here. It could just happen in those cases where the polar body happens to be unusually large for some reason. > > As to the OP’s point, yes, all of the precursor germ cells are alive, but before fertilization, it’s harder to identify them as a separate organism. Once fertilization occurs, you have something with a distinct genome from either parent, which could be justification for calling it a separate life, rather than just a part of one of the living parents. So is a cancer cell a different organism when it begins to exhibit a different genome than its host? On the contrary, are organisms that reproduce asexually still metaphysically one entity (separated by time and space)? This gets murkier, science is a double-edged sword, so anyone trying to use it to make a rule only highlights the exceptions to the rule. I think the idea of breath defining life is the best one (both for simplicity of definition and profundity of meaning) that I’ve read so far. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/18 "2008-10-27T23:11:51Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Am I nine month older than I thought I was then? A while back an enterprising young college student in Louisiana advanced that argument after the state declared that life begins at conception. He wanted to be allowed to purchase alcohol. Alas, fortune did not smile upon him. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/19 "2008-10-28T13:11:34Z")
> [@david\_42](#): > > If one was to read the Christian Bible, the answer is simple & would probably shock 99.999% of people who think they have read the Bible, including Popes. > > Genesis 2:7 “And God breathed into the form the breath of life and man became a living soul.” > > No breath, no soul, no person. A surprising number of religions concur with this position and in many legal jurisdictions, air in the lung sacks is considered proof of a live birth. > > I’m more inclined to the brainwave concept, but that would disallow so many things that walk on their hind legs. _ **OMG! NO ONE IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTENDOM EVER SAW THAT BEFORE! THE CONTROVERSY HAS BEEN SOLVED!** _ Of course, that this is talking about the special creation of the first full human by God, and not every subsequent human, and that the Psalmist speaks of God crafting him and knowing him completely while he was in the womb, and that Jeremiah was ordained for his mission while in the womb, and that embryo John the Baptist lept for joy at the presence of Mary and embryo Jesus, and that healthy preborn humans are obviously active & thoughtful in the latter stages of pregnancy- none of that has ANYTHING to do with the debate. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/20 "2008-10-28T13:38:28Z")
Not to mention that, you know, the first human as per the Bible was created whole and adult from dust. I think it’s pretty fair to say the rules would be different for Adam. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597.md?page=2)