# when does life begin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 26, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597 "2008-10-26T02:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![geniios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@geniios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geniios)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/41 "2008-11-06T15:14:00Z")
human, cucumber, whatever… life exists from the seed of it, the only question to discuss is human vs other, if you seek an answer that involves a human soul that is a religious question. If you simply want to distinguish human from other it’s a scientific question. The only reason to want to quantify the issue of when the soul exists is a need to satisfy religious belief and absolve ones self of wrong-doing. The old “no mommy I did not take the cookie”. ---
**Author:** ![geniios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@geniios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geniios)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/42 "2008-11-06T15:33:54Z")
Please I’m just saying “the soul” is a religious construct. If you want religion out of the abortion question you must let go of that concept when discussing it. Otherwise you discussing religious morality and all of it comes into play. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/43 "2008-11-06T16:30:43Z")
> [@SeanArenas](#): > > …At what point can a pre-born act as a sacrifice in a Satanic ritual? Third trimester? Generally, as an individual sacrifice, it has to be able to survive outside the womb. Dual sacrifices of the “a woman with child” type are far less clear, indeed it’s assumed by some that any time after conception is sufficient, although a clearly obvious pregnancy is better. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/44 "2008-11-06T20:05:26Z")
I am not christian, and I believe that life begins when the conceptus is able to breath and process food without an umbilicle cord. If it cant be pushed out of the womb and survive alive without major life support, it isnt alive. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/45 "2008-11-06T20:29:27Z")
**monavis** said: > [@](#): > > The question of when human life began is depending on if one believes in evolution or the Bible story. All began eons ago. The topic of this column is not when humans became humans, but rather when individuals become persons. **geniios** said: > [@](#): > > Yeah I know I must be an ignorant redneck because I have faith and I believe in a Supreme being. It’s really not a crime to be moral you know, at least not yet. It also doesn’t require faith and belief in a Supreme Being to be moral. **SeanArenas** said: > [@](#): > > This question may be better for GQ, but why do we allow religious motivations behind laws? Didn’t we have a separation of church and state? When we allow religion to create laws, aren’t we allowing religion to rule the state? We allow religious motivations behind laws because we allow individuals to have individual motivations. A person’s religious beliefs influence their positions and actions. There is a difference between a collection of individuals each being motivated by their own beliefs and coming to an agreed plan of action and a central authority dictating that laws must be such because of a religious belief. The fuzzy gray line is how much authority the religious group leaderships have over the actions of the individuals. \*\*geniios \*\* said: > [@](#): > > What motivates acceptance of abortion? I suspect different things for different people, but largely the following issues: 1. Independence of the woman, and security of her autonomy. The right of the woman to choose her own reproductive outcomes, whether or not to get pregnant independent of sex. Allowing sex as a choice not mandating reproduction. 2. Evaluation of when a developing embryo becomes a distinct individual with individual rights that balance or supercede the rights of the woman. If the status of separate sperm and egg cells is considered “not a person” and a newborn baby is definitely “a person”, where is the transition? And more importantly, why is that transition point chosen? Because there is a measurable quantity of distinction? Because is sounds good? Because it makes people feel better? ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/46 "2008-11-06T20:42:56Z")
> [@geniios](#): > > Please I’m just saying “the soul” is a religious construct. If you want religion out of the abortion question you must let go of that concept when discussing it. > Otherwise you discussing religious morality and all of it comes into play. And that’s exactly my point. When we’re talking about making laws (which are enforced by the state) that control how people live their lives, they shouldn’t be made based on religion. So when someone says, “abortions should be outlawed because you’re killing a soul,” that sounds to me like a religious argument for creating a law which restricts other people who may not be in your religion. I think if your religion dictates action to you and other people within your religion, you should seek for your church to enforce the action through a church imperative. Asking the state to enforce a law against other people who do not share your religious beliefs doesn’t seem right, to me. ---
**Author:** ![geniios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@geniios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geniios)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/47 "2008-11-06T21:34:28Z")
I agree quit making laws that dictate for and against religion. > [@SeanArenas](#): > > And that’s exactly my point. When we’re talking about making laws (which are enforced by the state) that control how people live their lives, they shouldn’t be made based on religion. So when someone says, “abortions should be outlawed because you’re killing a soul,” that sounds to me like a religious argument for creating a law which restricts other people who may not be in your religion. > > I think if your religion dictates action to you and other people within your religion, you should seek for your church to enforce the action through a church imperative. Asking the state to enforce a law against other people who do not share your religious beliefs doesn’t seem right, to me. ---
**Author:** ![geniios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@geniios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geniios)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/48 "2008-11-06T21:40:01Z")
Mine was a rhetorical question in response to condescending manner the first question was presented in. Didn’t require an answer thank you. > [@Irishman](#): > > **monavis** said: > > I suspect different things for different people, but largely the following issues: > > 1. Independence of the woman, and security of her autonomy. The right of the woman to choose her own reproductive outcomes, whether or not to get pregnant independent of sex. Allowing sex as a choice not mandating reproduction. > > 2. Evaluation of when a developing embryo becomes a distinct individual with individual rights that balance or supercede the rights of the woman. If the status of separate sperm and egg cells is considered “not a person” and a newborn baby is definitely “a person”, where is the transition? And more importantly, why is that transition point chosen? Because there is a measurable quantity of distinction? Because is sounds good? Because it makes people feel better? ---
**Author:** ![geniios](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@geniios](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geniios)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/49 "2008-11-08T12:28:36Z")
trying to answer each question not sure how you all do it so if this looks screwy ..yeah I did it wrong > [@Irishman](#): > > when does lofe begin? is the topic, below is your opinion > **monavis** said: > The topic of this column is not when humans became humans, but rather when individuals become persons. > > I argue that it does > **geniios** said:It also doesn’t require faith and belief in a Supreme Being to be moral. > > you dont make laws for what you do allow, but for what you dont > **SeanArenas** said: > We allow religious motivations behind laws because we allow individuals to have individual motivations. A person’s religious beliefs influence thei r positions and actions. There is a difference between a collection of individuals each being motivated by their own beliefs and coming to an agreed plan of action and a central authority dictating that laws must be such because of a religious belief. The fuzzy gray line is how much authority the religious group leaderships have over the actions of the individuals. > > Because it makes people feel better? exactly my point > \*\*geniios \*\* said: > I suspect different things for different people, but largely the following issues: > > 1. Independence of the woman, and security of her autonomy. The right of the woman to choose her own reproductive outcomes, whether or not to get pregnant independent of sex. Allowing sex as a choice not mandating reproduction. > > 2. Evaluation of when a developing embryo becomes a distinct individual with individual rights that balance or supercede the rights of the woman. If the status of separate sperm and egg cells is considered “not a person” and a newborn baby is definitely “a person”, where is the transition? And more importantly, why is that transition point chosen? Because there is a measurable quantity of distinction? Because is sounds good? Because it makes people feel better? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/50 "2008-11-08T22:57:35Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > This also raises the question of what happens when a twin is born as part of the other? Some babies have been born with extra legs some have extra eyes and mouths etc. one baby had part of her twin still wedged inside her body. > > Is this also a human being? I mean the parts. Like you, I assumed that extra body parts neccessarily meant conjoined twins, but I learned a couple years ago that this isn’t always the case. It’s possible that an extra limb or ear etc comes from an error in DNA instead. I’m sure someone can offer the technical explaination, but it seems as though the “blueprint” DNA gives to constuct a fetus can go wrong and a duplicate limb results. Even in the cases like you mention, though, the twin is dead. Do dead things still have souls in conventional consideration? ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/51 "2008-11-09T21:02:37Z")
> [@david\_42](#): > > If one was to read the Christian Bible, the answer is simple & would probably shock 99.999% of people who think they have read the Bible, including Popes. > > Genesis 2:7 “And God breathed into the form the breath of life and man became a living soul.” > > No breath, no soul, no person. A surprising number of religions concur with this position and in many legal jurisdictions, air in the lung sacks is considered proof of a live birth. > > I’m more inclined to the brainwave concept, but that would disallow so many things that walk on their hind legs. So God breathed breath into the first man, giving him a soul, how so does that equate to individuals gaining souls on their first breath of air? ---
**Author:** ![datasos\_adv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@datasos\_adv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/datasos_adv)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-does-life-begin/469597/52 "2008-11-19T07:10:55Z")
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