Repeating this.
I go into a store - I have a certain amount of money, what can I buy given the sales tax rate wherever I happen to be?
For me, I knit. I use algebra all the time. It makes interpreting patterns incredibly simple. Trying to explain what’s going on to someone who doesn’t understand the math is more difficult than for someone who does.
I remember a documentary in Africa. A boy is herding goats in the dessert and the reporter asks the father if it would not be better for the boy to be in school learning. The fathers says “What for? He has no use for all that stuff when he is herding goats.” and the reporter asked “Has it ocurred to you that the reason you are all herding goats in the dessert is because you don’t know that stuff?”
In Anerica you can substitute “flipping burgers” or “unemployed” for “herding goats”. What kind of job are you going to do with little or no education? A well-rounded education requires understanding many different aspects of the world around you. All knowledge is useful even if you do not use it directly because it enhances your understanding of the world. Algebra is the kind of thing you will use if you know it.
A slight hijack here.
I bought “How to solve Word Problems in Algebra” by Mildred Johnson, so that one of my kids could see how Algebra could be useful in real life. I thought it was quite well laid out and gave a good basic understanding of how to solve simple problems.
However, I have to say that there were so many typographical errors that you couldn’t accept the solution of a problem without checking it out yourself- perhaps that was the idea? The point I’m trying to make –rather laboriously – is that in a novel an incorrectly spelt word is often not that important, but in a maths book a + instead of a – can make a nonsense of the meaning.
I actually tried contacting the publisher to see if an erratum(?) was available but got no reply.
Sorry about all that but this happened fairly recently so it’s fresh in my mind.
Carry on 
Sailor, thank you very much for such a good example. Too often, people make excuses for why they don’t get more out of life, but the fact is, they just didn’t put more into it. By the way, I checked and you were right, I was referring to absorbtion not refrigeration. I had my terms confused. Thank you. (Just thought that a thread on general ignorance would be a good time to mention that.)
As a high school teacher, I personally think that making the kids take four semesters of logic courses would be a good thing, and more useful than algebra.
As it is now, we teachum WHAT to think, not HOW to think, and I don’t much like that.
Algebra does not teach critical thinking, per se. It simply teaches how to manipulate numbers and symbols, and it gives you an idea where and how to go look up certain formulas, years later, if you find yourself needing them. To this day, I can’t remember the compound interest formula, or algorithms, but I could go dig 'em up if I needed to… and I didn’t need semester after semester of that stuff to do it.
On the flip side, when you teach kids algebra, you get easily graded, quantifiable homework and tests, and you can show them off and say, “Oh, my, look, the little dears have learned problemsolving skills.” No, they have not. They have simply memorized formulas, and learned how to plug numbers in for a given purpose, and they will forget the formulas in short order when they quit using them.
Logic, on the other hand, could be used every day. But logic is a harder thing to grade… and as any schoolteacher can tell you, you can’t MAKE kids think. The best you can do is tempt them. Therefore, getting results out of them in a logic class would be considerably trickier… and if Our Government has taught me anything, it’s that it doesn’t much like complicated solutions.
Or thinking, for that matter…
Moving on for a moment to trigonometry, I remember astounding my fellow electricians many years ago when we were installing a guy wire and anchor on a pole. By doing the math I was able to tell them how much wire we would need to use. It saved having the whole crew going back to the warehouse to get an entire reel of wire, then transporting the remainder back to storage again.
[nitpick]Well, if you solve for X in that equation, you get 525-104=421 as your next score, which is patently ridiculous. The correct equation is:
(4(104)+X)/5=105, which gives you 109.[/nitpick]
I used algebra all through my school life (as a biochemistry major) but one of the most useful uses of it was simply being able to calculate what grade I needed on a final exam to pass the class!
Useful info, thanx for all the responses. Now if someone could relate it directly to being a Fireman then I’m all set.
Fireman=Bro’s Career Goal
Hey, being a fireman sounds like fun!!!Run up ladders, aim high-pressure hoses, save people’s lives. Stuff a 13 year can really get enthusiastic over.
But tell your brother that a job ain’t always fun–sometimes you have to do the paperwork that backs it up. After the fire is over, somebody has to write the report, and calculate the costs.How many manhours of time used,were the water pumps working at 80% capacity or 95%, would an extra hose or higher pressure make a difference?
. If you don’t have good enough grades to get a high school diploma, you arent even going to get hired–, because somebody just like you, but with better grades and a diploma will get the job.
So you have to pass algebra just to show that you have a brain, so future bosses won’t think you’re a dufus.
( I know----He’s only 13, and he won’t believe you.)
So just tell him that if he flunks anything, you’ll beat him up. and take away his gameboy.
Where is this “real world” I keep hearing about? 
Good point. As I see it, you shouldn’t be allowed to whine “What good is algebra?” and “I hate word problems” at the same time. The word problems are where the algebra gets applied to the real world. Perhaps unfortunately, many of the word problems that appear in algebra textbooks are artificial, but that’s probably necessary to keep them from getting too complicated or requiring specialized knowledge. Still, a look at the word problem sections of a good algebra book should at least suggest some ways algebra is applicable to the “real world.”
Knowling algebra helps you appreciate how numbers “work” and the relationships between them. One example: Distance = Rate times Time: the distance you cover is equal to how fast you travel multiplied by the amount of time you’re travelling that fast. And your rate of speed is equal to your distance divided by the amount of time. And the amount of time is equal to the distance divided by the rate of speed. To anyone well versed in algebra, it is obvious that these are not three separate relationships, but one fact stated in three different ways.
Is it “dufus” or “doofus”? 
Firemen have to take tests, too. If you want to move up, you have to be able to take on the extra work, which may involve (horrors!) being able to do calculations for things like floor loads, pressure/volume calcs, etc. (I’m guessing here). Math isn’t evil. It can actually make your life easier to manage.
:smack: That’s what I get for giving an example, lol. Thank you for correcting my ignorance…
(Alright, I admit it… I don’t figure it out that way… I use Excel…)
Firefighter, here. Particularly when one wishes to become a driver/operator, simple algebraic expressions which can be done in the head are indispensable for the pump operator.
If an 1 3/4" water line 200’ in length needs to have 200 PSI at the nozzle to provide 200 GPM delivery, what should the engine pressure be?
I need to know x=friction loss for the device (nozzle), y=friction loss per 100’ of a given diameter hose, to solve the equation.
When you have a half dozen handlines flowing from a engine and want to ensure optimum flow from all, your head algebra had best be good.
Algebra also worked for me as a paramedic when determining IV flow rates and drug infusions. If Bro wants to be an FF, figure on cross training for Medic.
Do firemen buy houses? Cars? Invest savings? Use credit cards? Does he plan to do nothing with his life other than work at his job? Any and every job he needs done he will call someone to do it? Some people are like that but they are continually in the hands of others. They are presented with a bill and they pay it not understanding anything. People like that are the greatest suckers and will always be making other people rich. Knowledge is power and some people choose to be ignorant but they should not complain that they are powerless.
Fact of the matter is, everyone knows and uses basic algebra daily. They are just not familiar with the particular symbology associated with the formal paper-and-pencil activity.
Math is one of those things that seems terribly obscure to apply to reality on an “everyday” level. The sad truth is that the reason is, if you don’t know it, you literally don’t know what you’re missing. Math, history, literature, psychology, sociology, philosophy, natural sciences–these things are absolutely everywhere. “What am I gonna use this for?” Learn it and you will see.
Well, this is overstating the case a bit. In this sense, everyone uses calculus when deciding to cross the street, predicting when no cars will be in the way. Basketball players use some pretty sophisticated multivariable calculus to decide what initial momentum and angular momentum to impart to the ball when taking a free throw.
Different topic altogether, Mathochist.
Interesting ideas, but the thread’s really grown too long for a newcomer to make heads or tails of it and respond in situ. I would say that practicing mathematicians don’t look at it as pure technique and believe in a certain amount of realism in ontology. That is, the natural numbers (for instance) exist and the sense in which they exist is outlined in Structuralism (for the edification of those who haven’t grown out of Formalism/Platonism debates)
On the other hand, the Church-Turing thesis states that any method of calculation is essentially equivalent to any other. That is: though the basketball player is not consciously thinking mathematically (I don’t deny your points that there is a mathematical style or technique of thought), some part of her brain really is effectively executing a calculation in multivariable calculus.
Now, my first post in this thread pointed out that the algorithms of algebra are pretty useless in a day-to-day level (barring certain professions), but that the important benefit is rational problem-solving skills. How does this differ from what you stated?
Well, Mathochist, it is not strictly a matter, to me, that I must sit down with a piece of paper and a pencil to be doing algebra. The response to Libertarian’s example was, “That’s subtraction.” Well, what does anyone think algebra is about? “Doing calculus” has a pretty specific use, as does “doing algebra”, which signifies symbolic manipulations, proofs, and formality. This doesn’t mean that we’re not using algebra in other ways, such as balancing a checkbook. I do not feel it is accidental that the action of balancing a checkbook or determining how much to remove from the ATM can be represented formally. Barring that accidental relationship, then, the person is “doing” algebra.
Ostensibly I agree with your post, nothing I said was meant to contradict it, but as a matter of course I think it extends beyond “logical thinking”. I mean, that’s predicate logic–another symbology. Ad infinitum. What a person takes from any particular field of study is larger than the area where that particular study is ostensibly directly applied. But the truth of this statement can only be borne out by learning the study in the first place, after which its truth should become evident.