# When good artists Go Bad. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 3, 2001, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305 "2001-01-03T22:04:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/41 "2003-01-22T00:29:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*You know, mangeorge, I don’t know _how_ I managed to dig it up! > > Sorry about the carbon dated thread, folks! \*\* Not a problem. 🙂 I watched a show on VH1 (or MTV) about this subject just last week. Pretty much every artist who was asked scoffed at the idea of _not_ selling out. It’s a matter of degree, I guess. I’ll sell my soul in a hot second. Fuck poverty. Been there. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![jesseboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/90ced4/32.png) [@jesseboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesseboy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/42 "2003-01-22T01:13:47Z")
an artist who i think sold out big time is moby. he started off making crazy underground techno and gradually became more and more pop. i have no problem with an artist producing a more mainstream sound after a while if that is their natural development, doing underground stuff for too long is boring…but he sold all of the songs on his ‘Play’ album to movies and commercials. don’t these assclowns realize that striving for mainstream acceptance makes the music boring real quick and sterotypes the artist even quicker? ---
**Author:** ![FranticMad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c68b51/32.png) [@FranticMad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FranticMad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/43 "2003-01-22T03:00:34Z")
Excuse me, but we’re talking about musicians. They are not great philosophers. They are not politicians. I don’t expect them to have a consistent point of view or to be holier than me. They play music for money and admiration. By definition, a popular muscian has already sold out whether they know it or not. I don’t mind that. ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/44 "2003-01-22T03:23:09Z")
**jesseboy:** Unfortunately, the growing trend is that electronic artists have to go to commercials in order to get sales. Moby wasn’t selling **any** albums until he got his music played on tv. It’s a matter of necessity, not of “I need a bigger yacht”. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/45 "2003-01-22T03:39:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jesseboy \* > \*\*don’t these assclowns realize that striving for mainstream acceptance makes the music boring real quick and sterotypes the artist even quicker? \*\* Also, and far more importantly, the music itself is what it is - it never changes. It doesn’t just wake up one day and has magically remixed itself overnight into some different song. The only thing that changes is our perception of the music - and our perception of the role it plays in our life. The artist doesn’t change either. They’re still the same person(s). The only people doing the “sterotyping” are us. Such behaviour sometimes emanates from the ugliest, most petty parts of human nature it seems to me. I’ve read this entire thread with interest. Some of the posts have been astonishingly objective and fair - but some them too have been amazingly catty. Personally, this is my take on the matter. I’m a muso, and a good one too. In this modern era of contrived music videos and homegenised appearance, I would much, MUCH rather have my music featured in a world wide advertising campaing which plays at all times of the day to all sorts of age demographics - than to make a video which might get played 3 times a week on music video programs. I’m in negotiations with Vodafone right now on such a tune. They wanted another tune similar in vibe to “Bohemian Like You” by The Dandy Warhols and I have one. My only stipulation has been that the adverts feature in soft logo my band’s name and the name of the song. Looks like they’re gonna accept it, so I don’t have any concerns whatsoever with the arrangement. It’s a rewarding quid pro quo as far as I’m concerned. But please note - I also have certain views on things and there are certain products I would NOT endorse - like cigarettes or booze for example - or a casino either as an another example. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/46 "2003-01-22T03:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mangeorge \* > **[ul] [li]Dylan went electric.[/ul][/li]** Oh, but the big Z put that controversy to rest aeons ago. Some harcore folkies squawked at the time — but, far from compromising his artistic integrity with an electric guitar, Dylan used it to take his artistry to previously unimagined levels. He was a brilliant artistic success with it if anyone was. My nominee for the most awful waste of brilliant musical talent: **Genesis** from 1978 onwards. I still can’t believe that post-1978 Genesis is actually the same 3 guys who played in pre-1978 Genesis. I suspect that they are impostors who murdered the genuine Banks, Rutherford, and Collins, hid their bodies, and took their places. ---
**Author:** ![DOOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a587f6/32.png) [@DOOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DOOM)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/47 "2003-01-22T08:12:06Z")
Kind of makes you wonder what the musical landscape would look like if money weren’t a factor at all, and only merit mattered. Because obviously the way it works now some bands get to the point, financially, where they can basically just shit in a bag and people will still buy it. Sad, really. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/48 "2003-01-22T09:06:46Z")
I think people have forgotten a major point in the good ol’ music biz. Many times the label owns the rights to the music. If the label wants to use Britneys “Hit me one more time” in a Hanes wifebeater t-shirt commercial poor Britney has no say. Well,. that and someone else wrote that song. I doubt Britney could write her way out of a paper bag. Also, consider the life of a musician. Many people feel the best work of bands are on their first and second album. Let’s say a band were really into their music. They spend time writing and playing and producing their own tracks. One day they get picked up by a label and record these tracks. Next thing you know they are playing lots of shows and promoting their album. When it comes time to get the next album off the ground they have an entirely different group around them. The label brings in a new producer, they are attempting to work out the bugs in a strange studio, they have time constraints. Tons of new and different things surrounding them. It would be easy to get distracted. On top of this, you end up with a bunch of “yes men” types that say how great it sounds even if it’s not up to par with their own standards. No matter if it’s a band of real serious musicians or just a bunch of musicians seeking the limelight, the focus on the music is going to shift. I think this is why 3rd or 4th albums tend to be break aways. If the band survives that long then they are getting their footing in the new enviroment and can focus on the production and writing again. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/49 "2003-01-22T09:08:09Z")
Opps. I meant to say their break away records are 5th/6th. After a couple of “sell out” attempts. ---
**Author:** ![Miles\_Standoffish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/54ee81/32.png) [@Miles\_Standoffish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miles_Standoffish)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/50 "2013-04-24T18:09:44Z")
Neil Young never sold out (“This Notes For You,” etc.) But, circa 1991, his music (especially lyrically) started turning to mush and never recovered. Not the kind of “going bad” you all are talking about but thought I’d throw it out there. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/51 "2013-04-24T18:13:50Z")
> [@Miles\_Standoffish](#): > > Neil Young never sold out (“This Notes For You,” etc.) But, circa 1991, his music (especially lyrically) turned to mush and never recovered. Not the kind of “going bad” you all are talking about but thought I’d throw it out there. This is an ancient zombie thread. And no, Neil still hasn’t sold out - go Neil! ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/52 "2013-04-24T18:20:39Z")
**Liz Phair** achieved a reputation as a serious alternative music artist, and received considerable backlash for her fourth, self-titled album which was, admittedly, “pop”. She has apologized to her fans and is working on a new album to try to regain her old fanbase. :smack: I have really got to start looking for zombies… ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/53 "2013-04-24T18:56:39Z")
If it makes you feel better, when I read the thread title, “Liz Phair” was the first thing to pop into my head. Thread seems more about selling out into commercials but there ya go. These days I assumed iPad and environmentally friendly economy car commercials were how new musicians got known. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/54 "2013-04-24T19:01:57Z")
Who cares if it’s a zombie? I’m sure there are more artists in the last 10 years that can be gleefully pilloried for selling out. > [@Bad\_Hat](#): > > Microsoft only asked the stones for “start me up” after R.E.M. turned down a $12mill offer. memory fails as to what song they wanted, but i’ve always appreciated REMs balls on the issue. IIRC, it was _It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine)_ ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/55 "2013-04-25T02:47:03Z")
Metallica’s Black Album! The loyal metalhead fans of the late-80s felt SO betrayed and pissed off when that one came out. One kid in my school actually wrote out a plea to the spirit of Cliff Burton. I wasn’t even into Metallica and I still remember that big overnight change when they became “mainstream”. The one-star reviews on Amazon show that it is still a sore spot years later. I only tried to check out Metallica’s stuff later on, and I thought the metalheads were pretty much correct that the black album was a blatant underachievement, so it is kinda strange that it was so loved by critics. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/56 "2013-04-25T03:05:41Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Pete Townshend did do a promo for the US military (the Air Force I believe) in the 1960’s. This has been mentioned in several Who biographies, and the promo in question is available on bootleg. I’ve heard it myself. It doesn’t say anything about the war at all, it’s more along the lines of “There are many great career opportunities for young people in the military”. > > Pete Townshend later said that he deeply regretted agreeing to do the promo and that he never would have done so if he had been better informed at the time about the war in Vietnam. > > If it makes you feel any better, in the promo Townshend did not sound especially enthusiastic or convincing. He sounded more like a stoned kid reading off a cue card. I recall reading in a biography of Townshend that he thought he was making the promo in aid of the US space program. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/57 "2013-04-25T05:06:17Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Joan Osborne is American, Ozzy Osbourne is British. And Super Dave Osborne’s name is an alias- his real name is Einstein. > > As many of you know, Super Dave’s brother is comedian Albert Brooks. Gee… I WONDER why a guy named Albert Einstein would change his name… I believe their last name is “Eisenstein”, not ‘Einstein". Wasn’t Super Dave also Officer Judy on the Smothers Brothers’ Comedy Hour? “Let’s share a little tea with Goldie!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/58 "2013-04-25T14:49:46Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Metallica’s Black Album! The loyal metalhead fans of the late-80s felt SO betrayed and pissed off when that one came out. One kid in my school actually wrote out a plea to the spirit of Cliff Burton. I wasn’t even into Metallica and I still remember that big overnight change when they became “mainstream”. The one-star reviews on Amazon show that it is still a sore spot years later. > > I only tried to check out Metallica’s stuff later on, and I thought the metalheads were pretty much correct that the black album was a blatant underachievement, so it is kinda strange that it was so loved by critics. TLDR version at bottom 55 posts before Metallica - one of the most monstrous (in all senses of the word) sell-outs by whatever definition you want to apply - gets a mention!? Kill 'Em All was the first metal tape I ever bought and I remember the day vividly. The rest of the discography up to and including One was a large part of the soundtrack of my teens and very early twenties. I remember hearing tales of how they wouldn’t do music videos or sell their name or music to any merchandiser etc. More than liking Metallica I respected and admired them. Though I knew they had compromised some I still felt that they were being true to themselves and their fans. But I lost touch with metal outside of my memories. Then one day I was listening to my local “bland-new-releases-mixed-with-songs-that-just-won’t-die” radio station and I thought I heard the DJ say that after the commercials it was the new “hit” by Metallica. I kinda chuckled and wondered if I had misheard or if it was some kind of a set-up for a joke. Nope, not a joke in the traditional sense, it was _Enter Sandman_. The day that my local version of WSUX played a Metallica song was the day that Metallica died to me. Napster and all other buffoonery and shitty music that followed was merely kicking the corpse. The other day I was in a head shop and amidst a collection of various themed sets I saw a Metallica Monopoly set. If it weren’t for the biting irony of it I would have wept a little. TLDR - Metallica are the poster children for all forms of slimey, sub-swine-sell-outism\<– I got dibs on the marketing idea fellas, I’m looking at YOU Lars! ---
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305/59 "2013-04-25T16:38:43Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I believe their last name is “Eisenstein”, not ‘Einstein". Wasn’t Super Dave also Officer Judy on the Smothers Brothers’ Comedy Hour? > > “Let’s share a little tea with Goldie!” It is indeed Einstein. > **[Albert Brooks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Brooks)** > > Albert Brooks (born Albert Lawrence Einstein; July 22, 1947) is an American actor, director and screenwriter. He received an Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor for his performance in the 1987 comedy-drama film Broadcast News and was widely praised for his performance in the 2011 action drama film Drive. Brooks has also acted in films such as Taxi Driver (1976), Private Benjamin (1980), Unfaithfully Yours (1984), Out of Sight (1998) and My First Mister (2001). He has written, Bro... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-go-bad/48305.md?page=2)