# When good artists turn out to be jerks, losers, or morons **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 31, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433 "2009-03-31T15:05:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/41 "2009-04-01T16:11:33Z")
> [@Jihi](#): > > Morrison may be the current benchmark, but the classic case of creator meltdown has to be Dave Sim. He puts the ‘M’ in mysoginist. Yeah, there’s a psychology dissertation to be had in reading the full run of _Cerebus_, from its whimsical Conan/comic book parody beginning to full-on misogynistic-rambling-in-tiny-cramped-handwriting conclusion. I wanted to add a favorite story from Sir Peter Hall’s autobiography about the play _Amadeus_: > [@](#): > > Margaret Thatcher came to see the play, and by the end of the evening she was clearly displeased. She berated me like a headmistress who has caught one of her pupils behaving badly. She couldn’t think it right, she declared, that the National Theatre of Great Britain should put on a play in which Mozart uttered disgusting four-letter words. I murmured that Mozart’s letters are exuberantly peppered with such words; he delighted, I said, in a bit of bawdry. The Prime Minister told me I was wrong - it was inconceivable that a genius who had written such elegant music would have used such inelegant language. She was quite cross with me for contradicting her. I said that I would send a copy of Mozart’s letters round to No. 10 the next morning, which I duly did, drawing attention in my covering note to one or two of the ruder passages. The reply thanking me, from the Prime Minister’s private secretary, avoided mentioning Mozart’s scatology. Having read Emily Anderson’s translations of Mozart’s letters, I can indeed report that his correspondence with his cousin can be entertainingly foul at times. ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Corey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Carl\_Corey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Corey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/42 "2009-04-01T16:15:17Z")
Who is PAD? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/43 "2009-04-01T16:18:53Z")
> [@Carl\_Corey](#): > > Who is PAD? Peter David. He’s a comic book writer notable for an excellent run on The Incredible Hulk in the 90s. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/44 "2009-04-01T16:49:57Z")
[April 1 hijack] > [@Kobal2](#): > > I learned recently (and on the SDMB) that the Who had done USAF and _sigh_ milk shake commercials in the 70s. But… what the hell, they rock, man ! Other products The Who have shilled for: Heinz Baked Beans Odorono (deodorant) Charles Atlas Medac (acne cream) Jaguar Premier Drums Rotosound Strings Coca Cola John Mason’s Cars All on the same album! [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![PharmBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/74df32/32.png) [@PharmBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PharmBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/45 "2009-04-01T17:12:20Z")
I had a Jewish friend who had a quote by Kipling on his desk. When I mentioned to him that Kipling was a vile anti-Semite, he was shocked and looked it up himself. Down came the quote… ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Corey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Carl\_Corey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Corey)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/46 "2009-04-01T17:19:09Z")
Thanks, **Skald**. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/47 "2009-04-01T17:26:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Frank Lloyd Wright was a selfish jerk and an arrogant cad As well as short, with an overwhelming bias against anyone over 5’8". I went to school at a campus designed by him and I banged my head on low ceilings and corners more than once. Little bastard. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/48 "2009-04-01T17:28:51Z")
Harlan Ellison. Arguably one of America’s best writers of short fiction, but a Class A jerk with a soul full of petty maliciousness. He held a grudge against Gene Roddenberry for decades because Roddenberry supposedly debauched Ellison’s sacred script for _The City on the Edge of Forever_, and the script wasn’t all that great. He’s famous for missing deadlines. _The Last Dangerous Visions_ became one of the biggest jokes of the publishing world, a kind of literary Flying Dutchman. Still, he refuses to admit it’ll never get published and all the writers who contributed to that ill-fated project basically got screwed. He has been known to seek vengeance for even the smallest of grudges, he lied about the Nixon administration suppressing one of his books, and yet he has the gall to pass severe moral judgment on and savagely attack virtually anyone who catches his attention or crosses his path. I still like his fiction, though. Miles Davis makes Ellison look like a sensitive New Age guy, but I still like his music. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/49 "2009-04-01T17:29:53Z")
> [@Sir\_Prize](#): > > I’m curious about these. I really enjoy their work including sometimes reading PAD’s blog. In wha way are they jerks? PAD, the ‘DIAF’ thing is only the most recent. What really turned me off him as a person was reading about his feud with John Byrne, where he was acting like as much of a jackass as Byrne, bringing other people into it, bringing it up in inappropriate contexts, etc - and given my opinion of Byrne, that’s saying something. Willingham insulted fans over their reaction to Stephanie Brown’s death - and I’m not talking about the ‘Every writer and editor involved must die’ idiots, but just the people who came to really like Steph and were saddened by her death. He can also be rather condescending about his politics - to his credit, he doesn’t drag it into his books as much as some writers (Winick, Millar, Miller), but when he does, it positively drips with ‘those liberals are idiots’. Ross is the worst kind of fan - ‘the characters I like are the only ones who should exist, and only the exact take on them I grew up with’ - and being a pro, has a much easier time being heard by a LOT of people. He’s also jammed his foot so far in his mouth when dealing with some other creators, it’s a wonder he can talk - the most recent one I can think of is talking about Geoff Johns ‘saving’ Obsidian from Marc Andreyko by bringing him into JSA - a comment that Johns was quick to distance himself from. While he wasn’t specific on what he was saving Obsidian from, the only way that Andreyko’s version differed significantly from other recent takes was being revealed as gay…well, there’s a good reason Johns didn’t want anyone to think he thought he was saving Obsidian. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/50 "2009-04-01T18:33:25Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Harlan Ellison. Arguably one of America’s best writers of short fiction, but a Class A jerk with a soul full of petty maliciousness. He held a grudge against Gene Roddenberry for decades because Roddenberry supposedly debauched Ellison’s sacred script for _The City on the Edge of Forever_, and the script wasn’t all that great… This just in: [http://trekmovie.com/2009/03/15/harlan-ellison-sues-paramount-alleges-unpaid-merchandising-royalties/](http://trekmovie.com/2009/03/15/harlan-ellison-sues-paramount-alleges-unpaid-merchandising-royalties/) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/51 "2009-04-01T19:45:39Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > This just in: [http://trekmovie.com/2009/03/15/harlan-ellison-sues-paramount-alleges-unpaid-merchandising-royalties/](http://trekmovie.com/2009/03/15/harlan-ellison-sues-paramount-alleges-unpaid-merchandising-royalties/) Jeez. No wonder the little twerp had a heart attack. Talk about your Type A personality … ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/52 "2009-04-01T23:36:41Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Ross is the worst kind of fan - ‘the characters I like are the only ones who should exist, and only the exact take on them I grew up with’ - and being a pro, has a much easier time being heard by a LOT of people. He’s also jammed his foot so far in his mouth when dealing with some other creators, it’s a wonder he can talk - the most recent one I can think of is talking about Geoff Johns ‘saving’ Obsidian from Marc Andreyko by bringing him into JSA - a comment that Johns was quick to distance himself from. While he wasn’t specific on what he was saving Obsidian from, the only way that Andreyko’s version differed significantly from other recent takes was being revealed as gay…well, there’s a good reason Johns didn’t want anyone to think he thought he was saving Obsidian. I’m actually sort of the opposite on Ross - I think his work is really lame, but the guy himself cracks me up. I can’t read his fanboy rants without picturing them coming out of [Rusty Brown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Brown). In addition to the above, I remember some comments he made around the time of Green Lantern: Rebirth indicating that he and those nutbar Hal Jordan fans (H.E.A.T., right?) had won some sort of victory with the miniseries. Johns was quick to distance himself from that nonsense, too. And at one point Ross said that anybody who didn’t draw Spider-Man like John Romita did is an asshole. I’m not kidding. He retracted his statement a few days later. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/53 "2009-04-02T00:50:55Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That’s pretty much the standard for me, too. Richard Wagner was a vicious anti-Semite who pretty much wrote the soundtrack for the later Third Reich, but I like his music. Michael Jackson is almost surely a pedophile with some kind of weird surgical addiction, but his early tunes are great. Tom Cruise is arguably a nutjob Scientologist, but I enjoy most of his movies. Frank Lloyd Wright was a selfish jerk and an arrogant cad, but an incredibly gifted and visionary architect. I can appreciate their work without endorsing their every character flaw. Actors at least aren’t all forced into the genius=shitheel stereotype. Musicians, painters, etc., get excused anything because that’s “what it takes” and “the price of art.” This of course devalues the talent of the truly decent humans among them. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/54 "2009-04-02T02:13:46Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > In addition to the above, I remember some comments he made around the time of Green Lantern: Rebirth indicating that he and those nutbar Hal Jordan fans (H.E.A.T., right?) had won some sort of victory with the miniseries. Johns was quick to distance himself from that nonsense, too. Yep, the nutty Jordanites are HEAT. (Hal’s Emerald Advancement Team - what a pompous forced acronym.) And I suspect Geoff is developing a kneejerk ‘Alex’s opinions are his own, please don’t assume I agree with him’ reaction every time Ross says his name. \>\_\> ‘Hi, Geoff!’ ‘Alex’s opinions are his own…’ ‘Whut?’ ‘… Nothing. Hi, Alex.’ ---
**Author:** ![Anduinel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Anduinel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduinel)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433/55 "2009-04-02T02:43:34Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Ross is the worst kind of fan - ‘the characters I like are the only ones who should exist, and only the exact take on them I grew up with’ - and being a pro, has a much easier time being heard by a LOT of people. He’s also jammed his foot so far in his mouth when dealing with some other creators, it’s a wonder he can talk - the most recent one I can think of is talking about Geoff Johns ‘saving’ Obsidian from Marc Andreyko by bringing him into JSA - a comment that Johns was quick to distance himself from. While he wasn’t specific on what he was saving Obsidian from, the only way that Andreyko’s version differed significantly from other recent takes was being revealed as gay…well, there’s a good reason Johns didn’t want anyone to think he thought he was saving Obsidian. Obsidian’s homosexuality was canon (or at least heavily suggested) before Marc brought him into the ‘Manhunter’ supporting cast – the big difference was that the shadowy angst-pot actually got to have a healthy, mostly happy relationship with another guy on-panel. Fun stuff. But I agree that this was probably what Ross was referring to; he’s gone on before about making characters like Obsidian gay to appease the PC masses or something like that. Not that the comment makes any real sense anyway – JSA and Manhunter ran concurrently and Obsidian was in both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-good-artists-turn-out-to-be-jerks-losers-or-morons/491433.md?page=2)