# When has a rapist been a sympathetic character? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872 "2007-07-07T17:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/201 "2014-03-24T12:20:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’d just like to add… > … giggety. This is the one that surprised me most by its long absence from this thread. Quagmire is clearly and openly depicted as a serial rapist but continues to be a popular character, although perhaps this is because pretty much everyone else in the show is similarly odious. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/202 "2014-03-24T13:03:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not sure I agree with this confident conclusion. > > We don’t know how much older Jones was at the time. Certainly Marion says that she was a “child,” but she’s obviously angry and not prone to characterize things charitably towards Jones. If they were separated by ten years, we could imagine Marion was 17 and Jones 27 when their relationship occurred. That would not be statutory rape today, and certainly not in the 1930s in Illinois, which is presumably where the affair happened, since we learn at the beginning of the movie that Abner was at the University of Chicago when Jones studied under his tutelage. > > Neither character’s age is directly revealed, of course, but Karen Allen is only nine years younger than Harrison Ford, so my supposition is certainly defensible. > > Of course, your theory might be correct also. I just don’t agree that the canonical information mandates your conclusion. > > ETA: having written that whole post, I now re-read what you wrote and see you meant the novelization of the movie. > > Not having read the novel, I would ask what specific ages, if any, are the two when this assignation occurred? There was simply no reason for Abner Ravenswood to have grown angry enough to ostracize his protege if he slept with his 17 year old daughter. She would have been a woman by the standards of the time and Ravenswood would have to at least tolerated it even if he wasn’t happy about Also Marian’s anger wouldn’t have been rational if Indiana Jones had simply engaged in her in consensual sex. She would have more angry at her father for driving him away and she wouldn’t have mentioned that was “a child” when it occurred as she wouldn’t have seen herself as being one. The film simply hand waves what Jones did in favor of portraying him as a sympathetic protagonist. In fact, the franchise does this again when we later discovery that Jones has a “secret son” with Marian who he doesn’t even know. It asks the viewer to believe that he is a "hero " who doesn’t act that “heroically” when his actions are reviewed. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/203 "2014-03-24T13:14:24Z")
And for anyone who wonders why Zager and Evans were one hit wonders with _In The Year 2525_ here is their followup _Mr Turnkey_, a thoughtful ditty about a convicted rapist, in which they try to cast him as a sympathetic figure: \*Mr Turnkey, it’s 10 pm in Wichita Falls August 16, 1969 and I’m in some bar Mr Turnkey, I need a woman and I ain’t getting far I never was the kind of man a woman looked for. But Mr Turnkey, she looked at me with flirting eyes Mr Turnkey, she was lovelier than oil lights Mr Turnkey, she led me on, she led me on, She knew she wasn’t going to let love her. Mr Turnkey, there’s been a rape in Wichita Falls Mr Turnkey, I’m sitting here crying in my coveralls … … Mr Turnkey, you ain’t never seen nothing like this before Mr Turnkey, I nailed my wrist to your wall, I’m going home … … Mr Turnkey, I’m crying, hanging here dying Tell her I’m sorry\* It’s beautiful stuff. Isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/204 "2014-03-24T15:02:00Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > There was simply no reason for Abner Ravenswood to have grown angry enough to ostracize his protege if he slept with his 17 year old daughter. She would have been a woman by the standards of the time and Ravenswood would have to at least tolerated it even if he wasn’t happy about Huh?? I can think of plenty of reasons – Abner may have felt betrayed that Jones used his relationship with Abner and trust Abner had in him to seduce his daughter. This was the 1930s – it wouldn’t be at all unusual for Abner to have felt that Marion was a ruined woman, regardless of how old she was, because Jones did not marry her. > [@](#): > > Also Marian’s anger wouldn’t have been rational if Indiana Jones had simply engaged in her in consensual sex. She would have more angry at her father for driving him away and she wouldn’t have mentioned that was “a child” when it occurred as she wouldn’t have seen herself as being one. Again, though, you’re applying contemporary standards to the behavior of characters who occupy a world set eighty years ago. Marion may have felt led on, that Jones’ willingness to take her virginity implied he intended to marry her. And indeed, in _Crystal Skull_ we see the truth of that – they WERE engaged, and Jones left her, not knowing she was pregnant with Shia LaBeouf. You can certainly argue his actions weren’t heroic. I just don’t agree there’s enough canonical film support for the claim he was a rapist. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/205 "2014-03-24T16:09:58Z")
I have no problem with Marion being 14 or 15 at the time. Jones says “You knew what you were doing,” which I take as dismissal of any idea that she was an innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/206 "2014-03-24T17:57:25Z")
Damien Lewis as Soames Forsythe in the Forsythe Saga. A despicable dandy type, and He raped his wife. At the time they were clearly estranged and yet he had to have his property. At the end of the series Lewis is undone and damn if you don’t feel sorry for the guy. I think it’s more Lewis than the story, but he was convincing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/207 "2014-03-24T19:45:32Z")
Cugel the Clever from Jack Vance’s \*The Eyes of the Overworld \*and _Cugel’s Saga_. The first novel implies he raped the ruler of Cil. In both books he coerces several women into having sex with him. ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/208 "2014-03-24T19:58:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Huh?? > > I can think of plenty of reasons – Abner may have felt betrayed that Jones used his relationship with Abner and trust Abner had in him to seduce his daughter. This was the 1930s – it wouldn’t be at all unusual for Abner to have felt that Marion was a ruined woman, regardless of how old she was, because Jones did not marry her. There no evidence to indicate that marriage was ever an issue so that’s implying facts not presented in the narrative. > [@Bricker](#): > > Again, though, you’re applying contemporary standards to the behavior of characters who occupy a world set eighty years ago. Marion may have felt led on, that Jones’ willingness to take her virginity implied he intended to marry her. And indeed, in _Crystal Skull_ we see the truth of that – they WERE engaged, and Jones left her, not knowing she was pregnant with Shia LaBeouf. > > You can certainly argue his actions weren’t heroic. I just don’t agree there’s enough canonical film support for the claim he was a rapist. How am I doing that? Women have historically been extremely upset when they were used and dumped by men. That’s not a “contemporary” mindset as that narrative has been played out throughout history. And Marian referred to **herself** as being “a child”; Jones didn’t nor did it seem to matter to him as he expressed very little guilt over his actions. **She** obviously felt betrayed by his actions, consensual or not Sorry, but having sex with an underaged woman is viewed as being rape in many cultures (although perhaps not yours). The film downplays the matter as acknowledging it would turn Jones from a “hero” into an anti-hero at best. We’ll just have to disagree about your viewing of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/209 "2014-03-24T20:36:10Z")
Absolutely ridiculous. She was acting like a woman jilted, not a rape victim. And anyway we know that she was not legally underage when she got pregnant because we saw the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/210 "2014-03-24T21:58:11Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > In addition to the first novel, Flashman commits forcible rape on another occasion-- I believe it was in _Flashman’s Lady_. He rapes a woman during an attack on a pirate village in _Flashman’s Lady_ - he’s clutching her in a funk of fear at the time (which doesn’t stop him from raping her). This is true, but Harry Flashman is a far from sympathetic character - he’s a self-confessed murderer, coward, cad and bully (and rapist). ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/211 "2014-03-24T22:38:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And indeed, in _Crystal Skull_ we see the truth of that – they WERE engaged, and Jones left her, not knowing she was pregnant with Shia LaBeouf. If being pregnant with Shia LaBeouf isn’t grounds for leaving someone I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/212 "2014-03-24T22:53:22Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > There no evidence to indicate that marriage was ever an issue so that’s implying facts not presented in the narrative. There’s no evidence in the movie to indicate that Marion was below the legal age of consent, either, and yet, here you are. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/213 "2014-03-24T23:25:42Z")
They did a LAW & ORDER where a sex offender is now out on parole after eighteen years behind bars; he mutters that he just wants to hold down an honest job in between keeping to himself, but Jack McCoy – who thinks the guy (a) shouldn’t have been released in the first place, and (b) will surely revert to form as soon as he’s stressed – tasks the cops with making life as miserable as possible for, y’know, an ex-con trying to go straight. And so _threat-or-menace_ posters of the guy go up, and he’s soon fired, and he can’t leave the county to go live with family members upstate. And he’s under constant surveillance, rising to a flimsy-pretext strip search whenever the authorities feel like it, sure as his neighbors are routinely subpoenaed to testify about him – wait, what? The law says he’s done his time? No, that’s irrelevant: McCoy’s not trying to _ **jail** _ the guy; he’s loudly trying for the _ **insane** _ asylum; make sure the papers get that right. Like someone said upthread, the guy being hit with all of that is more “pathetic” than “sympathetic”, but I still think it deserves mention. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/214 "2014-03-24T23:36:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > This is the one that surprised me most by its long absence from this thread. Quagmire is clearly and openly depicted as a serial rapist but continues to be a popular character, although perhaps this is because pretty much everyone else in the show is similarly odious. > [@typoink](#): > > I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Pete Campbell from _Mad Men_. While he’s always portrayed as a bit of a twerp, I think the intention is generally to make him a somewhat sympathetic twerp. It’s also debatable if he’s guilty of rape, but plenty of folks seem to think so. The first 184 posts in the thread were made seven years ago. Perhaps that’s why Family Guy and Mad Men references didn’t show up. ---
**Author:** ![mage-girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@mage-girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mage-girl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/215 "2014-03-25T00:11:21Z")
In the book _Perdido Street Station_ a rather sympathetic supporting character turns out to be a rapist. I was so pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/216 "2014-03-25T00:57:52Z")
I don’t recall Quagmire ever raping anyone. Peeping tom, yes. Hitting on under-age girls, yes, albeit unsuccessfully. Both nasty in their own way. But forced sex with an unwilling partner, I don’t recall that. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/217 "2014-03-25T02:56:45Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I don’t recall Quagmire ever raping anyone. Peeping tom, yes. Hitting on under-age girls, yes, albeit unsuccessfully. Both nasty in their own way. But forced sex with an unwilling partner, I don’t recall that. He stumbled across a young girl bound and gagged in a bathroom stall. His reaction was “Oh yeah!” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/218 "2014-03-25T03:05:16Z")
I think it was “Dear Diary: Jackpot.” Peter has called him a rapist directly at least once. Further, Quagmire once said “I’ll never be able to force sex on a woman against her will without thinking of ‘rape’.” Plus the usual drink he orders for his date is “roofie colada”. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/219 "2014-03-25T08:49:43Z")
Probably the strongest example I can think of (as in, he is a very sympathetic character and it was definitely rape) is Ugwu in the excellent novel _Half of a Yellow Sun_. The author, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, talked recently about how war changes people and we shouldn’t pretend that anyone can emerge pure from it. Another literary example is Rose Tremain, _The Road Home._ It was harder to like this character after the act - it was clearly an act of hatred; and he’s an economic migrant, not a boy soldier. Nevertheless, Tremain creates a very sympathetic character. (Btw, I don’t personally count examples of men forced to have sex with other equally unwilling partners as rapists.) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/220 "2014-03-25T09:40:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think it was “Dear Diary: Jackpot.” > > Peter has called him a rapist directly at least once. Further, Quagmire once said “I’ll never be able to force sex on a woman against her will without thinking of ‘rape’.” > > Plus the usual drink he orders for his date is “roofie colada”. He’s seen drugging the Bachelorette and dragging her back to his place before noticing the cameras and leaving her lying on the ground outside. Plus he has automated drugging-and-stripping mechanisms in his house and car. And that’s not even getting into what he did to Loretta AFTER she died. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872.md?page=12)