# When has a rapist been a sympathetic character? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 7, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872 "2007-07-07T17:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/241 "2014-03-25T20:28:45Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I know I mentioned another character in this thread some pages ago, but one that I thought now (and searching this thread I cannot find), is Lestat. > > In one of the Interview with the Vampire series (I think the fourth one, maaaybe the third one?), Lestat is able to change bodies (if even for a short while), and becomes “human”. In this human form, he befriends a waitress (not sure if he is also injured), and eventually rapes her. He realizes later what he has done, and I think at the end of the novel, back in vampire form, he goes back to the waitress to try and make amends (and probably verify she is not pregnant?). _Tale of the Body Thief,_ the 4th novel with Lestat. That’s actually a really good example. We definitely sympathize with Lestat, especially in _Tale of the Body Thief_, and IIRC there isn’t any kind or question whether or not it was rape, it’s not like she was just underage. They were making out, and then he forcibly throws her down and rapes her, while she is screaming for him to stop. It was actually the one time in all the Lestat novels, including all the murders he’s committed, where after reading it I thought “Whoa. Not OK.” ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/242 "2014-03-25T20:34:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > This is the one that surprised me most by its long absence from this thread. Quagmire is clearly and openly depicted as a serial rapist but continues to be a popular character, although perhaps this is because pretty much everyone else in the show is similarly odious. Ditto with Douglas Reynolm from the IT crowd ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/243 "2014-03-25T21:02:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This is true, but Harry Flashman is a far from sympathetic character - he’s a self-confessed murderer, coward, cad and bully (and rapist). For you. I see him as an honest coward, cad, and bully, not to mention successful and interesting. I believe you do Flashy an injustice as well-- as I recall, he drew the line at murder. I’m pretty sure there’s even a passage where he boasts that you cannot find a single instance of assassination in all his long history. And at least he’s not a liar and a thief like Huck Finn, or a mass murderer like Ender Wiggen, or a mutilator like King David, or an anti-capitalist rebel like Christ, or a prostitute like Holly Golightly, or mad like Hercules, or yadda yadda hopefully you get the point. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/244 "2014-03-25T22:10:39Z")
“Literarised” autobiography rather than pure fiction, and overall an unusual case; but there comes to my mind, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. He tells in his autobiographical ballad _Prussian Nights_, of the brief crazy spell of intense action which came his way at the beginning of 1945, between the Red Army’s invading in massive strength, the extreme east of Germany – he taking part therein – and his arrest “in the field” for anti-Soviet activity, and what followed from that. Multitudinous bad stuff perpetrated on German civilians by the Soviet soldiery, in which AS, by his candid admission, took something of a part. One such thing that the invaders engaged in, was very widespread rape of German women. AS tells (remorsefully) toward the end of the ballad, of his – small-scale – participation in this particular abuse. In a German farm just overrun by his unit, he yields to the temptation of using his position of power, to suggest politely to a young female resident, that she have sex with him. He being a basically decent and civilised guy: one would reckon that had the girl’s response been “thanks, but no thanks”, he would have respected that (though if so, it would seem doubtful whether he could have prevented his subordinates from violating her in a rougher and cruder fashion). The deed is done, as gently and considerately as AS can manage it; and immediately after, he feels guilty and ashamed. Not very long after this happening, he is arrested; and one is inclined to feel that he gets plenty of punishment for his offence, in the shape of what comes his way over the next dozen or so years. One can take from all the above, various conclusions – experiencing at least some sympathy for Solzhenitsyn; or, for assorted reasons, feeling repelled / angered / embarrassed / unsuccessfully bullshitted, by his recounting what he recounts, as he does. I am personally in the “sympathy” camp, basically approving of the guy and his life and work; and being of the mind that that we don’t know what we might be capable of in extreme and unusual circumstances, and should not rush too hastily to judgement re same. Of course, “mileages may vary”. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/245 "2014-03-25T22:33:30Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Did anyone mention The Comedian in Watchmen? > > Not completely sympathetic of course, but there are overtones from various people because…let’s face it…life is complicated. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Yes, Watchmen’s message is that life is complicated, but it in no way encourages you to have sympathy for the Comedian. Not the way I see it. There’s only one moment in the series that _might_ encourage sympathy for the Comedian, I figure, and that’s his tearful monologue to Moloch. The rest of the time, he’s pretty much a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/246 "2014-03-25T22:39:24Z")
In Julian May’s Saga of Pliocene Exile, the Tanu use psychic powers to rape human women (if they don’t consent) and impregnate them. And yet many are presented sympathetically, especially King Thagdal. However, one woman who is threatened with rape (and certainly sexually abused, if not raped) and the husband of a woman who miscarried (IIRC) because of this rape took a horrific revenge on the Tanu, killing thousands, and the author makes it clear what the victims of these rapes have suffered. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/247 "2014-03-25T23:40:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > There’s only one moment in the series that _might_ encourage sympathy for the Comedian, I figure, and that’s his tearful monologue to Moloch. The rest of the time, he’s pretty much a dick. Well, there’s the bit when he genuinely tries to connect with his daughter, but he can’t actually tell her that, and Sally angrily assumes he’s out to prey on the kid… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/248 "2014-03-27T15:45:06Z")
I thought of a few others. Conan doesn’t commit the deed, but it’s clear that he intends to rape “The Frost Giant’s Daughter” in the short story of the same name. Cerebus the Aardvark rapes Astoria around Issue 98 or 99. In _Casablanca_, Louie Reynault coerces women into having sex with him. In Ovid’s _Metamorpheses_, all the major Greek gods are rapists. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/249 "2014-03-27T17:38:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, and in a fan fiction story I read, Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy had a romantic and sexual relationship. > > So in that version of the Harry Potter story, Harry’s gay. > > But not in the actual, canonical Harry Potter universe. I don’t think you can dismiss George Lucas and Steven Spielberg as just a couple of fan fiction writers. They were the people who originally created the characters we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/250 "2014-03-27T17:50:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think you can dismiss George Lucas and Steven Spielberg as just a couple of fan fiction writers. They were the people who originally created the characters we’re discussing. And you’re talking about an idea they had that was discarded before the script was completed. In the first draft for Star Wars, Luke Skywalker was a general. If you refer to the character that actually made it onto the screen as General Skywalker, people are going to look at you funny. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/251 "2014-03-27T18:13:30Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > …There’s also an old Charlton Heston movie, _The Warlord_, where a nobleman takes advantage of his feudal right to boink the commoner bride on her wedding night, and they end up falling in love. On a related note: [droit du seigneur - Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=718873) > [@Loach](#): > > If being pregnant with Shia LaBeouf isn’t grounds for leaving someone I don’t know what is. Heh. I was going to say, “What red-blooded American man _wouldn’t_ abandon a woman if he knew she was going to bring Shia LaBeouf into the world?” > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, there’s the bit when [the Comedian] genuinely tries to connect with his daughter, but he can’t actually tell her that, and Sally angrily assumes he’s out to prey on the kid… Fair point. He’s still a dick 99.97% of the rest of the time. ---
**Author:** ![BurnMeUp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@BurnMeUp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BurnMeUp)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/252 "2014-03-28T09:17:23Z")
In The QUiet Man I have pretty much been certain that Sean Thornton (John Wayne’s character) rapes his newlywed bride (Catherine O’Hara) on their wedding night after she goes into the bedroom to hide and locks the door. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/253 "2014-03-28T13:20:20Z")
> [@BurnMeUp](#): > > In The QUiet Man I have pretty much been certain that Sean Thornton (John Wayne’s character) rapes his newlywed bride (Catherine O’Hara) on their wedding night after she goes into the bedroom to hide and locks the door. The last U.S. state to make marital rape illegal did so in the 1990s. In the time and setting of “The Quiet Man” the concept of raping your bride would have been dismissed as ridiculous. If you married a woman, she had to have sex with you, that was the law, and more importantly, the understanding of what marriage was in those day. So I’m not sure that we can call Sean Thornton a rapist … what he did might be rape to our modern understanding, but it wouldn’t be to his … or his bride’s. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/254 "2014-03-28T13:48:11Z")
> [@BurnMeUp](#): > > In The QUiet Man I have pretty much been certain that Sean Thornton (John Wayne’s character) rapes his newlywed bride (Catherine O’Hara) on their wedding night after she goes into the bedroom to hide and locks the door. I think you meant John Candy, not John Wayne. I don’t think Wayne ever worked with Catherine O’Hara. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/255 "2014-03-28T14:49:54Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I think you meant John Candy, not John Wayne. I don’t think Wayne ever worked with Catherine O’Hara. I suspect it’s more likely he meant Maureen O’Hara, not Catherine. Although a version of The Quiet Man with John Candy and Catherine O’Hara would certainly have been interesting. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/256 "2014-03-28T15:31:07Z")
Evil Captor - I have to disagree with you. (" … what he did might be rape to our modern understanding, but it wouldn’t be to his … or his bride’s. ") Decades ago A husband forcing himself on his wife might not have seemed like rape to the man but I’m pretty darn sure it did to the woman, or bride. That’s why the laws were changed. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/257 "2014-03-28T15:47:10Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Evil Captor - I have to disagree with you. (" … what he did might be rape to our modern understanding, but it wouldn’t be to his … or his bride’s. ") > Decades ago A husband forcing himself on his wife might not have seemed like rape to the man but I’m pretty darn sure it did to the woman, or bride. That’s why the laws were changed. The FIRST US state to make marital rape a crime didn’t do so until 1978. I’ll grant you that there had to have been a lot of people who thought marital rape was a crime prior to then, or the law would not have passed. But even in 1978 there were probably a lot of people who would not have considered it a crime. The Quiet Man was made in 1952 and set in contemporary Ireland, a place noted for being deeply sexist and sexually backward. I find it highly unlikely that they would have been in advance of the US on this topic. Unless you can come up with some reason why the home of the [Magdalene laundries](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sidonie-sawyer/-the-true-scandal-of-the-_b_4509415.html) and[hospitals that let mothers die](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) rather than perform abortions would be in advance of the US on this topic , I stand by my previous statement. ---
**Author:** ![tapu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@tapu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tapu)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/258 "2014-03-28T15:55:23Z")
I walked out of a showing of Almodovar’s “Tie Me Up, Tie Me Down” because of it. (I mean, I wanted to see what happened so I waited until it was over, but then I walked right out!) I think the character’s name is Rikki. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/259 "2014-03-28T16:10:46Z")
Evil Captor - I was merely stating my opinion that to the individual women it would feel like rape whether backward Ireland called it so or not. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872/260 "2014-03-28T16:19:07Z")
An earlier thread that may be of interest: [Rape/almost-rape scenes where you kindasorta sympathize with the rapist (spoilers) - Cafe Society - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=447192) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-a-rapist-been-a-sympathetic-character/410872.md?page=14)