# When has strategy/tactics defeated a vastly “superior” enemy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2004, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634 "2004-11-25T14:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/21 "2004-11-25T20:26:38Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > They don’t have to win, they just have to survive and keep chipping away until we declare victory and piss off home. And given that our strategy is to play into their hands every time, ensuring an endless supply of new recruits with our ‘to a hammer every problem is a nail’ approach I’d say they’re probably winning. > > I can’t come up with any definition of the word ‘winning’ that encompasses us still bombing the capital city of a country we supposedly occupied a couple of years ago. I can’t come up with any definition of the word “winning” that involves one’s country being occupied by enemy troops. The “suicide bomber” tactic has been tried against Israel for decades, and it sure doesn’t look the the Palistinians are winning that one any time soon. Speaking of which, the Israel victory in '67 against the combined Arab armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan probably qualifies for the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/22 "2004-11-25T20:36:06Z")
Rove vs. Kerry? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/23 "2004-11-25T21:44:51Z")
[Brice’s Crossroads](http://www.civilwar.org/historyclassroom/hc_bricesxrdshist.htm). ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/24 "2004-11-25T22:23:57Z")
Cajamarca? Pizarro and 180 Conquistadors took down an entire Empire. Granted, it wasn’t much of a fight and they took advantage of a civil war, but it was still pretty stunning… ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/25 "2004-11-25T22:29:25Z")
cavemen hunters ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/26 "2004-11-26T09:43:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I can’t come up with any definition of the word “winning” that involves one’s country being occupied by enemy troops. > > The “suicide bomber” tactic has been tried against Israel for decades, and it sure doesn’t look the the Palistinians are winning that one any time soon. > > Speaking of which, the Israel victory in '67 against the combined Arab armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan probably qualifies for the OP. Well, at least you concede the fight against the occupiers is a liberation struggle. They are probably winning just like the VC were winning throughout the late sixties until reunification, they are winning the political war. History will decide. I hope they don’t win and Iraq becomes a free, democratic society following whatever path it decides. I don’t believe that is the goal of either side though although if the occupiers permit a govt with a strong anti-western bias to emerge and kick them out I’ll admit I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/27 "2004-11-26T10:01:34Z")
A phalanax of 300 Spartans versus the forces of Xerses. Of course they were ultimately betrayed but they had a legendary triumph holding off the Greeks, who vastly outnumbered them. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/28 "2004-11-26T10:29:06Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > A phalanax of 300 Spartans versus the forces of Xerses. Of course they were ultimately betrayed but they had a legendary triumph holding off the Greeks, who vastly outnumbered them. Persians - the Spartan 300, plus several thousand other Greek auxilaries from other city states fought the Persians at Thermopelae (spelling wrong, I know). Enough tyo answer the term paper yet? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/29 "2004-11-26T10:39:36Z")
Hannibal. And I don’t mean Hannibal the Cannibal either. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/30 "2004-11-26T10:57:54Z")
Don’t forget Salamis. Now, that was a hell of a battle. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/31 "2004-11-26T12:29:30Z")
Last years Pistons vs. Lakers. Choking defense by a team lacking “stars” beats high scoring high talent high ego team. Also the NBA stars striking out in the Olympics to teams with better strategy and team play. Miracle on Ice. Team USA beats a vastly more talented Soviet National team by using their own tactics against them. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/32 "2004-11-26T12:38:58Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Don’t forget Salamis. Now, that was a hell of a battle. And probably one of the most important ones, for the history of Europe. Forget Thermopylae, they _lost_ that battle, them Spartans. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/33 "2004-11-26T13:52:42Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Forget Thermopylae, they _lost_ that battle, them Spartans. Well they weren’t their to win you know 😉 Just to give a good beating and delay to “them” Persians. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/34 "2004-11-26T14:23:48Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Well they weren’t their to win you know 😉 Just to give a good beating and delay to “them” Persians. Well, question was 'has strategy/tactics **defeated** a vastly “superior” enemy? Those Spartans didn’t win ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/35 "2004-11-26T14:29:48Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Well, question was 'has strategy/tactics **defeated** a vastly “superior” enemy? > Those Spartans didn’t win They won as in they achieved their tactical objective. Delay the Persian army and give the rest of the city states time to get their act together. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/36 "2004-11-26T14:43:52Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > They won as in they achieved their tactical objective. Delay the Persian army and give the rest of the city states time to get their act together. And can I take this chance to rave mindlessly about Steven Pressfield’s magnificent Gates of Fire novel on the battle. A man who knows his greek historical stuff - I had tears in my eyes at the end. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/37 "2004-11-26T15:01:44Z")
I’ll use the most underrated piece of sporting genius of modern times because you won’t understand it. A famous moment in sport in England is Jonny Wilkinson kicking the extra time field goal in the 2003 World Cup Rugby Final to beat Australia. No one seems to remember that on the previous play Wilkinson set himself for an unlikely, but possible, field goal attempt. Matt Dawson, on receiving the ball, realised the Australian defence was going to be all over Wilkinson and made a dazzling little break that ultimately allowed Wilkinson his famous moment. I have often wanted to meet Dawson so that, as an Aussie I could shake his hand and tell him that I thought he won the final. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/38 "2004-11-26T16:08:04Z")
I’d say OPERATION BARBAROSSA (the German invasion of Russia)…for the first 6 months! Think about it: the Germans (and their axis allies) invaded the vast country of the USSR, with about 10 tank/panzer divisions, and roughly 3 million men. The Russians had over 11 million soldiers, plus a huge tank force, with better tanks than the germans. In the firstb 6 months, the germans had captured over 3 million russinas, and taken vast amounts of land…they were almost in Moscow, by December 1941. The Russians were completely outfought and out-guessed-the panzer armies kept ripping them apart. Then came two great russian generals: general Mud and General Winter! After that, the germans were assured of defeat! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/39 "2004-11-26T16:28:48Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Agincourt. Agreed on the “vastly superior foe” part, but I don’t believe that “let’s stay up here on the hill and shoot them full of arrows, rather than running down into the mud with all the horses and the swordsmen and the dying” counts as one of the “striking examples of strategic or tactical genius”. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634/40 "2004-11-26T19:53:10Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Those Spartans didn’t win … the battle… but they got “immortality” 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-has-strategy-tactics-defeated-a-vastly-superior-enemy/276634.md?page=3)