# When HR goes goofy, what recourse? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 8, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939 "2014-05-08T01:27:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/41 "2014-05-09T02:26:48Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Well he is coming at this from the perspective of a professional employee, not a clerk at a grocery store. In most professional situations, disagreements are worked out without being “written up” like a wayward high school student. We have a third party account of events. We don’t really know what conduct, perhaps conduct not seen by the OP, got the individual written up, nor the HR dept’ reason for documenting the incident. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/42 "2014-05-09T16:11:09Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Well he is coming at this from the perspective of a professional employee, not a clerk at a grocery store. In most professional situations, disagreements are worked out without being “written up” like a wayward high school student. I’ve worked at probably a dozen different jobs, from grocery clerk to professional employee (thankfully in that direction) and pretty much every company, with the exception of very small ones, has had some kind of formal written warning policy, sometimes subsequent to an oral warning. And yeah, I’m sure it is humiliating to receive one. But it’s so common, I’m surprised that you and **msmith537** seem unfamiliar with the concept. Certain offenses— say, openly smoking crack and taking a shit on the boss’s desk— are severe enough that the warning system is bypassed and you’re fasttracked to Shitcanville. But things like excessive lateness/absenteeism, failing to meet performance levels, etc. may require a couple of strikes before you’re sacked. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/43 "2014-05-09T16:59:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It sounds almost like the sort of thing where if you show up a few minutes late to work, you get a bunch of demerits and a letter in your file or something. Yes, that’s exactly it :). I never even considered that might not be standard operating procedure at the executive level such that someone may not have much experience with the process ( not being an executive myself ), but it makes sense I suppose. But yep, show up at my job a half hour late with no good excuse and it’s more or less “don’t do it again” and stay over a half hour to make it up. Do it again in a short period of time and it is a “letter in your jacket” and a sterner warning. Again and it is unpaid “time on the beach” and another letter. Again and it is “hit the road.” Well, that’s the standard progression, anyway. In actuality it varies a good bit. Given that I imagine you don’t have set hours at your job and/or anyone monitoring your comings and goings, I can’t see that you would ever have such an issue. But if you are working on an auto line somewhere, you bet the above would come in to play. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/44 "2014-05-09T17:12:51Z")
> [@racepug](#): > > I work at a major university and I was dragged to H.R. last year due to a situation in my office. One that never should have gone to H.R. in my opinion, mind you. But I wasn’t in charge of the situation so it did. I liked to believe that at a university (as opposed to a company in the private sector) that H.R. would be more useful. I was wrong. As uncomfortable as I’d become with a certain co-worker I was 1000x **less** comfortable with the H.R. person who was assigned to “help” with our situation. In short - in my view the H.R. person not only didn’t _help_, she made things much WORSE (at least for me). All I can say is this: that I hope I NEVER have to deal with that H.R. person ever again, and - don’t go to H.R. if it can POSSIBLY be avoided. H.R., in my opinion, is of NO USE whatsoever. This. HR is not there to help you in this type of thing. They don’t want to hear about problems because they are obligated to react and protect the company, not you. Ask them to help explain how vacation time is calculated or where to ask questions about your health care. Questions that have a straight forward answer they can handle, situations between employees not so much. There job is to circle the wagons around the company and keep you (the trouble maker) out. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/45 "2014-05-09T17:22:12Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I’ve worked at probably a dozen different jobs, from grocery clerk to professional employee (thankfully in that direction) and pretty much every company, with the exception of very small ones, has had some kind of formal written warning policy, sometimes subsequent to an oral warning. And yeah, I’m sure it is humiliating to receive one. But it’s so common, I’m surprised that you and **msmith537** seem unfamiliar with the concept. > > Certain offenses— say, openly smoking crack and taking a shit on the boss’s desk— are severe enough that the warning system is bypassed and you’re fasttracked to Shitcanville. But things like excessive lateness/absenteeism, failing to meet performance levels, etc. may require a couple of strikes before you’re sacked. Of course I’m familiar with escalating HR warning systems. But what the OP describes (or at least how he describes it) sounds more like some sort of archaic Orwellian control system used by very large, bureaucratic companies to control very low level employees. Like the sort of employees who need to be told not to “diss” at work. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/46 "2014-05-09T17:52:18Z")
Most companies will have an appeals process, grievance system, call it what you will. Usually if some sort of appeal is lodged, it is taken up outside the management line of the subject of complaint, and also at least one level above the subject of complaint. Like any other form of appeal, you have to demonstrate that the action taken was outside of company policy, not that what happened was unjust, and this is quite a step for many employees to get their heads around. You can appeal on the grounds of incorrect procedural steps, such as deadlines being exceeded, however the catch all on such things is that even if things were unfair or unjust or disproportionate, the appeal may still be lost if it was reasonable for the manager to take certain steps based upon the information they had available at the time - even if the information subsequently turned out to be wrong. You also need to understand that the level of proof is not exactly forensic certainty, its normally far below that, frequently coming no better than ‘balance of probabilities’ and can be as low as ‘in all likelihood’. The test in an appeal at such a low level of proof might be, ‘Well why would someone want treat you so badly if there was no reason’? No smoke without fire type of argument. Even trying to appeal or submit a grievance is fraught with personal risk, you are simply lighting yourself up as a person who will be trouble in the future - you have to really balance things up - hurt feelings do not usually mean all that much, and are never worth all the hassle. Personal pride can be your own downfall. If there are two employees with a personal issue between them, its not a great idea to get involved because they will be recruiting support and usually on a distorted story - you just get dragged in. When HR finally gets involved then details may well turn up that they simply can’t tell you, and you find you took the wrong side completely, worse still, you’ll never know why. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/47 "2014-05-09T23:52:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What the OP describes (or at least how he describes it) sounds more like some sort of archaic Orwellian control system used by very large, bureaucratic companies to control very low level employees. Like the sort of employees who need to be told not to “diss” at work. I’ve been at a Fortune 100 corporation where I overheard the division VP telling a section director, “If you schedule your vacation time during peak season again, I’ll put someone else behind your desk. Kevin {HR guy for our branch}, stick that in his file.” I’ve also been at 4-person companies where the warehouse guy was told “Sign this; it’ll go in your file. It just says I’ve warned you not to stack 'em like that again.” The OP’s description is different than the lingo we usually see on the SDMBs but the practice he is complaining about is pretty standard practice at all levels of business: Paper trails help CYA. –G! ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/48 "2014-05-10T03:50:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > do you think it means the same thing at every employer in the world? I’d bet a jillion dollars that it does. How about you? ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/49 "2014-05-10T03:53:40Z")
IIRC, \*\*msmith537 \*\*is/was in HR. To not have heard of being ‘written up’ and/or ‘employee files’ strikes me as…well, not really in touch with HR practices. Do they not have employee files at all organizations where there is an HR department? The majority of the posters here seem to be familiar with the term. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/50 "2014-05-10T03:58:48Z")
> [@runningdude](#): > > We have a third party account of events. We don’t really know what conduct, perhaps conduct not seen by the OP, got the individual written up, nor the HR dept’ reason for documenting the incident. Of course, you only have a third party account of events. Anybody and their cat knows, or should know, that. You are stating nothing new. That is true with most TV and newspaper articles that you read, as well. I don’t want you to be a finder of fact. If I did, I would have given you everybody’s work or cell number. I want to know if, given the statements that I have presented to the SDMB, there is a way to achieve the desired results that I submitted. Don’t want or need you to do anything else, and, it as it turns out, you aren’t doing what I needed. The whole of all of the SDMB is generally third party accounts, etc…, so why get all officious on my thread?? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/51 "2014-05-10T04:27:12Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > I’m betting the same as where I work: nothing would get you written up. One of my coworkers got a stern talking to about her personal life causing excessive absenteeism and they had a meeting about how to help her deal with those issues (drug addicted ex making her and the kids’ lives hell) but no one has ever been formally punished for anything that I’m aware of. And they didn’t take any notes on the discussion, or mention it in her written evaluation? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/52 "2014-05-10T05:12:18Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Of course, you only have a third party account of events. Anybody and their cat knows, or should know, that. You are stating nothing new. That is true with most TV and newspaper articles that you read, as well. I don’t want you to be a finder of fact. If I did, I would have given you everybody’s work or cell number. > I want to know if, given the statements that I have presented to the SDMB, there is a way to achieve the desired results that I submitted. Don’t want or need you to do anything else, and, it as it turns out, you aren’t doing what I needed. > The whole of all of the SDMB is generally third party accounts, etc…, so why get all officious on my thread?? Because unless we know what exactly happened, we really can’t give you any advice. Just saying vague things like “dissed him” and “peacemaker” really don’t tell us anything. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/53 "2014-05-11T04:51:04Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Because unless we know what exactly happened, we really can’t give you any advice. Just saying vague things like “dissed him” and “peacemaker” really don’t tell us anything. I’m not trying to give you all of the facts, and I don’t want to, and you don’t need them. If you cannot answer my OP with the facts as given, then, you can’t answer it with more. I’m asking “GIVEN THE PARAMETERS AS I HAVE SET THEM, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RECOURSE MY FRIEND HAS!” Don’t get your underwear in a bunch over ‘dissed’ and ‘peacemaker’. Use the accepted understanding of the words. They are irrelevant; say 'the shithead who tried to get the two fucks to reconcile" and ‘called her a fucking bitch’ if that makes you happy. Whatever. Also, please defer discussion on ‘written up’, etc… And, I didn’t \*just \*say vague things like ‘dissed him" etc… I gave a situation. The "dissing’ was enough to get them into HR’s office, as I noted in the OP. Friend A insulted friend B. Friend C got blamed by HR. As I said, I don’t need finders of fact for what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/54 "2014-05-11T05:57:21Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > Dissing? Jerking a knot in HR’s tail with putting fear into same? What kind of workplace is this? New Jack City-style drug den? Well, apparently the HR has been puffin’ stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/55 "2014-05-11T06:05:04Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I’m not trying to give you all of the facts, and I don’t want to, and you don’t need them. Then don’t bitch if people can’t help you if they don’t have all the facts. We aren’t mind readers. Different situations call for different actions, and if you don’t understand that, well, then, lost cause I guess. > [@](#): > > “GIVEN THE PARAMETERS AS I HAVE SET THEM, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT RECOURSE MY FRIEND HAS!” Given the ones YOU have given? None, really, since it seems like they were all equally at fault. We can only go on what you tell us. If people aren’t understanding what you’re saying, the problem isn’t on our end. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/56 "2014-05-12T03:42:22Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > I’ve been at a Fortune 100 corporation where I overheard the division VP telling a section director, “If you schedule your vacation time during peak season again, I’ll put someone else behind your desk. Kevin {HR guy for our branch}, stick that in his file.” > > I’ve also been at 4-person companies where the warehouse guy was told “Sign this; it’ll go in your file. It just says I’ve warned you not to stack 'em like that again.” > > The OP’s description is different than the lingo we usually see on the SDMBs but the practice he is complaining about is pretty standard practice at all levels of business: Paper trails help CYA. > > –G! Well… Sounds like you worked for some of the worst companies on the planet. What’s Kevin the HR Guy supposed to put in the file? That the Director was subjected to verbal abuse by the Division VP for scheduling vacation he was entitled to? I would have presumed that the VP had to approve the vacation in the first place? > [@handsomeharry](#): > > IIRC, msmith537 is/was in HR. I don’t/didn’t. I’ve spent most of my career in management / technology consulting. As \*\*Tamerlane \*\*alluded to, things are, in fact, a bit different in my industry, particularly in management. Typically manager/report relationships are more collegial. > [@handsomeharry](#): > > Originally Posted by Fear Itself View Post > do you think it means the same thing at every employer in the world? > > I’d bet a jillion dollars that it does. How about you? Sometimes if I screw up at work, I have to sit down and have a chat with my boss over coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/57 "2014-05-12T13:04:52Z")
Hasn’t your friend learned by now that you only do what’s in your job description? 🙂 Act outside of that, and you take on extra duties you won’t be paid for. Is your friend a meddler? Maybe that person got written up because they wouldn’t mind their own business and kept exacerbating matters when everybody else wanted to drop it. You also seem to be taking things personally. Are \*you \*the friend? ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/58 "2014-05-25T00:56:00Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Of course, you only have a third party account of events. … > The whole of all of the SDMB is generally third party accounts, etc…, so why get all officious on my thread?? I was not addressing you, the OP. I was addressing a series of posters who expressed incredulity that someone in a “professional environment” would or could be written up. I pointed out the obvious that their could have been unprofessional behavior not mentioned that would justify the writing up. Please follow the subthread conversation preceding this comment. ---
**Author:** ![runningdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@runningdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runningdude)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939/59 "2014-05-25T01:04:40Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Then don’t bitch if people can’t help you if they don’t have all the facts. We aren’t mind readers. Different situations call for different actions, and if you don’t understand that, well, then, lost cause I guess. > > Given the ones YOU have given? None, really, since it seems like they were all equally at fault. > > We can only go on what you tell us. If people aren’t understanding what you’re saying, the problem isn’t on our end. Excellent response, Guinastasia. The OP want’s us to help his friend “make trouble” for the HR department, yet refuses to let anyone consider that the friend may have acted inappropriately in handling the conflict. _Hmmm…_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-hr-goes-goofy-what-recourse/687939.md?page=2)