# When, If Ever, is it Appropriate to Blame the Victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984 "2024-04-07T22:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/181 "2024-04-15T15:24:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > The problem with “imprudent choice of major” is that what, exactly, is a good choice and what isn’t can change surprisingly fast. > > I got a degree in math which was stupid considering I wanted to work in the computer field and only got into teaching by accident. Then I was told that it was stupid to get a master’s in math to teach middle school. BOTH degrees became very valuable long after I started thinking I F’ed up getting them I got an art degree which I was told was basically “underwater basket weaving” and while I have not (yet) applied it exactly as I intended I’ve actually gotten a fair amount of use out of it over the years, applying some of the skills and knowledge I acquired in a variety of areas. Arguably, I’ve gotten more use out of my BFA than a lot of people with a bachelor’s in history or psychology or communications. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/182 "2024-04-15T15:34:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Depends on the details. I realize that is not as satisfying an answer as some would want, but context is important Which is exactly why we use courts and trials to make decisions based on the unique circumstances and facts of each incident. > [@Midtown](#): > > A person takes out 100k student loans. They major in underwater basket weaving. They graduate, can’t find a job in their chosen field. Are they the victim of the banking system? Or did they make an imprudent decision? Answering this is often a perspective issue. If, as many of us clearly do based on the responses, view the exploitation of students by predatory lenders as a systemic problem, then no, the person with the loans is the victim, and is not at fault. If, as you do, the perspective is personal, then it can easily be the borrowers fault, as they took out loans with no thought on the future responsibility necessary to pay them back. Both things can be true at the same time. I tend to be more sympathetic to the systemic view—many people are put in situations where there are only bad choices, so they are victims even when they are the ones who made the choices. The other perspective is that even when only given bad choices, sometimes some are better than others (state school instead of private, work-study instead of more loans, etc.) Partly my bias towards the systemic view is driven by the mantra of “personal responsibility” that gets chanted by corporations and others who have caused harm as a way to use victim blaming to shield themselves from blame. Of course, I can also flip the entire hypothetical around. Was it an imprudent decision to skip college and now find yourself a 35 years old and not qualified for any job that makes more that $15/hour? ---
**Author:** ![Midtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@Midtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Midtown)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/183 "2024-04-15T15:40:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > However, it was pretty damn provocative. That would, to my mind, make it a mitigating circumstance and arguably a reason for reduced penalties on the part of the Watts citizens. Not a guarantee. Details matter. That’s kinda my point. Is it ok to blame the victim? One might gather from the above statement that the victim is at least somewhat to blame. Maybe technically from a legal standpoint, the people who kicked his ass might face some legal repercussions, but most of us would think the KKK guy is a dick who got what he deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Midtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@Midtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Midtown)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/184 "2024-04-15T16:01:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And if lenders are stupid enough to lend money to people who can’t pay it back then I have zero sympathy for them. They took a risk, it didn’t pay off, they have to deal with the consequences. No one forced them to take that risk, it was a choice. Indeed, I have never made any loan or any investment in my life without being provided information about the potential risks involved. Are you asserting that people making students loans to students are not aware of the risks of lending money to young adults with only a high school education? In this scenario, you seem to portray the bank as the victim who should be blamed. They loaned money which was not paid back. They deserved it for exploiting poor innocent college students. I am trying to expand the conversation. Ain’t nobody trying to blame rape victims for being raped. That is a given. My interpretation of the OP was that sometimes the “victim” might have contributed to the bad thing that happened. We probably should teach basic financial literacy in high school. But that doesn’t change my mind that if you buy two ATVs on your credit card, you have made an imprudent financial decision. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/185 "2024-04-15T16:20:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > What I meant was that the society that responds ‘That was a good thing to do!’, instead of responding ‘That was a terrible thing to do, it’s awful that you had to do it’ becomes, I strongly suspect, somewhat more likely to shoot the person who knocks on the wrong door at night; or turns around in the wrong driveway. I think we need to separate something being good in a moral sense and good in a sense that it’s pleasant. Sometimes the right thing to do isn’t pleasant. I also think telling someone they did something terrible has a different connotation from saying it’s awful they had to do something. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/186 "2024-04-15T16:58:00Z")
And what I’m saying is that I think it’s wrong in the moral sense to kill another human (excluding, in some limited circumstances, helping someone to die easily). Sometimes it’s necessary, because it may be the least wrong thing to do in a given situation. But because a wrong thing is necessary doesn’t make it right. Its necessity removes blame from the person who did it – but that doesn’t make the action itself right. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/187 "2024-04-15T17:09:20Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And what I’m saying is that I think it’s wrong in the moral sense to kill another human I still think that you are incorrect in this. It is not wrong morally to kill someone trying to kill me or my family. It simply isn’t and there is no way you can convince me the moral choice is to let a murderer kill me or my family. If your point is that next time it is easier to kill an intruder before the imminent threat then the morality of causing that death is tied to that event, not the one prior. Where you might have a point is a situation where you could kill Hitler before the Holocaust or like in my horror movie example where the other character is a danger to all around them so killing them is pre-emptive self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/188 "2024-04-15T17:18:18Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > And what I’m saying is that I think it’s wrong in the moral sense to kill another human (excluding, in some limited circumstances, helping someone to die easily). Sometimes it’s necessary, because it may be the least wrong thing to do in a given situation. But because a wrong thing is necessary doesn’t make it right. Its necessity removes blame from the person who did it – but that doesn’t make the action itself right. I get what you’re saying but it makes no sense. If it’s morally wrong to use deadly force in self-defense no matter the circumstances then whomever does so is to blame. I categorically reject the idea that deadly force is automatically wrong in a moral sense. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/189 "2024-04-15T17:25:29Z")
> [@Midtown](#): > > White male walks through Watts wearing a KKK robe. Gets his ass kicked. Was wearing a vicious racist robe an”imprudent” decision or did he know he was gonna get his ass kicked. Was the white male wearing a KKK robe a victim of violence? Are the citizens of Watts guilty while the KKK guy has no responsibility for the situation? It’s a free country, racist white people can wear whatever they want Walking through Watts in a KKK robe is adjacent to “fighting words” territory, if not squarely in it. That doctrine has been long-held by the courts, though somewhat narrowed over time, and says that some forms of expression are so inflammatory, so provocative, that they’re essentially an invitation to fisticuffs and unprotected by the First Amendment. Picture a Westboro Baptist nut telling a father at his daughter’s burial that she’s a perverted whore who’s burning in hell, for another example. If the dad punches him in the nose, the court could well decide (in different words) that the nut was asking for it, and his bloodied nose was predictable and excusable. So, the KKK robe situation is an interesting one, because (without additional details) the guy who was beat up could well be deemed the one who deliberately instigated the confrontation. At a minimum there is blame on both sides, and that blame has nothing to do with victimhood to the extent it’s assigned. ---
**Author:** ![Midtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@Midtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Midtown)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/190 "2024-04-15T17:40:23Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > At a minimum there is blame on both sides, and that blame has nothing to do with victimhood to the extent it’s assigned. In the context of the OP, I am not sure I understand your point of view. Both parties might be to blame? But neither is a victim? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/191 "2024-04-15T17:51:08Z")
Again, the hypothetical would need to be fleshed out, but depending upon the extent of the beatdown, there could be victims and blame on both sides. Mr. KKK robe could be blamed for deliberately instigating a confrontation, and a victim if there was an over-the-top response. The puncher could be the victim of “fighting words,” of egregiously inflammatory expression, and blamed for a brutal beatdown (to the extent it’s brutal). Or the puncher could be considered completely blameless. For example, suppose KKK guy walks up to someone on a Watts corner, gets right in his face, and shouts, “Fuck you, n\*\*\*\*\*!” If he gets a broken nose as a result, the courts could absolutely decide he was asking for one. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/192 "2024-04-15T18:23:05Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Picture a Westboro Baptist nut telling a father at his daughter’s burial that she’s a perverted whore who’s burning in hell, for another example. If the dad punches him in the nose, the court could well decide (in different words) that the nut was asking for it, and his bloodied nose was predictable and excusable. Or if you were harassing Buzz Aldrin in an effort to get him to admit the moon landings were a hoax… ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/193 "2024-04-15T19:07:14Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > there is no way you can convince me the moral choice is to let a murderer kill me or my family. I didn’t say that. I said that in that situation there is no choice which is moral. You have to choose the one which is less wrong; and most people, me included, will consider that to be killing the would-be murderer. There are a few who decide otherwise – some observant Mennonites, for instance. > [@Odesio](#): > > I get what you’re saying but it makes no sense. If it’s morally wrong to use deadly force in self-defense no matter the circumstances then whomever does so is to blame. It makes perfect sense to me to say that they’re doing something wrong but in those circumstances they’re not to blame for it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/194 "2024-04-15T20:24:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Ha ha ha … no. They’re not By no means in all, but in several community colleges are tuition free- > **[Is Community College Free? (In Some States, Yes)](https://www.coursera.org/articles/is-community-college-free)** > > Many US states offer tuition-free community college, but that's just one cost to consider as you budget for your education. _As of 2022, there are 20 states in the US that offer tuition-free community college through either a first-dollar or last-dollar program. These include:_ You still have to pay for books, and of course living costs, but most students live at home during that period. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > Walking through Watts in a KKK robe is adjacent to “fighting words” territory, if not squarely in it. That doctrine has been long-held by the courts, though somewhat narrowed over time, and says that some forms of expression are so inflammatory, so provocative, that they’re essentially an invitation to fisticuffs and unprotected by the First Amendment. Well, yes- throwing fruit etc and or minor fisticuffs is one thing, but assault with a deadly weapon would still be a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/195 "2024-04-15T20:40:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, yes- throwing fruit etc and or minor fisticuffs is one thing, but assault with a deadly weapon would still be a crime. Of course. But that wasn’t the hypothetical, which was a beatdown of some unexplained severity. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/196 "2024-04-16T19:51:40Z")
I don’t think it’s all that useful to blame anyone for anything. It’s cheap and easy, and leaves out everything except the incident. I’m not saying things shouldn’t have consequences, far from it. But from what I’ve seen, some people are just born gullible. They just don’t have a suspicious, cynical personality. So they are easy marks for the schools of milling sharks that now abound. Other people have shitty impulse control and are addicted to adrenalin. They take stupid risks most people wouldn’t. Blaming these people is saying, ‘why don’t you have a different personality, you idiot!’ Then there are those who are way out of their depth. Why shouldn’t they get a selfie with a bear family begging on the road? Why shouldn’t they step over the chain and stand way out on the cliff to get the full effect of the magnificence of the crashing surf? _They don’t know why_. They are about to find out. You could say, couldn’t they read the fucking signs? But some people have lived their whole lives (up to that point anyway) never needing to read signs like that. They see other (equally ignorant) people doing it, and copy them. Whatever. I’m just saying, people end up being victims for complicated reasons. Many of which they can’t readily remedy. Nuance is a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/197 "2024-04-16T19:58:35Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I’m just saying, people end up being victims for complicated reasons. Many of which they can’t readily remedy. One thing that has come out in this thread is that there are different sorts of “blaming,” or different things we could mean by the word “blame.” If, by “blame the victim,” we mean telling other people: “Bad Thing probably wouldn’t have happened to them if they hadn’t done Inadvisable Thing,” we may make it a little less likely that those other people end up being victims in the kinds of ways you describe. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/198 "2024-04-16T19:59:28Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I don’t think it’s all that useful to blame anyone for anything. Except of course- for the criminal. I have suggested a course in high school- _Practical economics,_ where the students would learn to balance a checkbook/bank account, do a dimple tax return, and spot scams. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/199 "2024-04-16T20:22:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except of course- for the criminal. Well, that’s not the title of the thread … ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/200 "2024-04-16T20:39:30Z")
The OP mentions victims of scams. If the scenario involves a ‘victim’ who had been cheated by his or her accomplices to a criminal plot… ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984.md?page=11)