# When, If Ever, is it Appropriate to Blame the Victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2024, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984 "2024-04-07T22:59:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/141 "2024-04-12T15:14:58Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > In case (1) the axe murderer of course is 100% responsible. But: I’d argue that my responsibility for what befalls me is no lesser in case (1) that in cases (2) and (3), i.e. the total responsibility of all involved in case (1) exceeds 100 %. Terms like “blame” and “responsibility” are meaninglessly abstract until we start talking about who is owed justice and restitution. That’s why I like to think of the question “who is owed justice?” If you do something that advertises to a criminal that you’re a desirable target - you’re still owed justice for that crime. It’s accurate to say you failed your duty of responsibility to your own safety and security, and nothing can prevent people from chattering about that, but it shouldn’t ever be a concern of the justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/142 "2024-04-13T04:15:31Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > If someone suggests that while the person did not deserve what they got, they did act foolishly, my impression is that respondents are far more likely to condemn such remark as “victim blaming,” rather than saying, “yes, that is an astute observation.” I doubt whether it’s an astute observation, but I agree that discussions of best practice can attract accusations of victim blaming. Also, discussions of best practice can advanced by those with less knowledge than they think and directed at the victimized without invitation. On twitter. A lot of this came up during the [Robert Chambers manslaughter case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Chambers_(criminal)). The victim showed a lack of prudence in my view, which in no way implies that she deserved to be killed. I recall some engaging in outright victim blaming, while others having quieter discussions about prudence, making clear upon questioning that the vic in no way deserved to be killed. I think this topic is more familiar now than it was then. Today, polite company are more likely to grasp the importance of throat clearing before discussing risk assessment. I see Robert Chambers had some run-ins with the law after he was released from prison. I can’t say that I’m surprised. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/143 "2024-04-13T04:47:55Z")
According to my parents, if I’m the victim then I should be blamed. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/144 "2024-04-13T10:30:06Z")
If you are a company and get hacked, you are definitely blamed. And have to apologise to boot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/145 "2024-04-13T11:15:09Z")
I (on multiple occasions) didn’t lock my doors and someone sneaked into my house and took my (our) shit. Am I to _blame_? I think not, the thief is to blame. They are morally responsible. Was I a dumbass? Yes, I was a idiot for not locking my doors. There is a profound difference, but so far we haven’t found the correct terminology. (Lack of) prudence? Common sense? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/146 "2024-04-13T21:27:22Z")
Imprudent might work. Irresponsible implies some external obligation, which doesn’t apply when you are the only victim. Let’s go back to Truth Social. There’s probably some fraud there. But there’s also a lot of business incompetence, which is perfectly legal, though a waste of resources. For that component, the investors are to blame, for exercising insufficient _due diligence_. Their punishment will be roughly proportional to their losses, but only roughly. Limited liability implies that equity holders are only liable for the money they put in. Possibly they should owe a greater share, if Truth Social jerks around their vendors or engages in readily anticipated malfeasance, causing damage exceeding their negative profits. You can pile the blame on the victim, to the extent that the victim doesn’t fulfill their prescribed obligations to others. If the implied business model is that, “Trump will be elected President, then everything will work out for us,” there are layers and layers of bad judgment, for which they deserve financial punishment. The financial system if based upon investors exercising good judgment after all. Remedial education should involve a detailed review of Stein’s Law: “That which cannot go on forever will stop.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/147 "2024-04-14T20:38:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The victim showed a lack of prudence in my view, which in no way implies that she deserved to be killed. I recall some engaging in outright victim blaming, while others having quieter discussions about prudence, making clear upon questioning that the vic in no way deserved to be killed. I think this topic is more familiar now than it was then. Today, polite company are more likely to grasp the importance of throat clearing before discussing risk assessment. Okay, but: how far does some throat clearing get you? Say I see a guy by the side of the road, and I can’t see his face but can see that he’s looking to hitch a ride, and can also see that he’s got a big broad-bladed hunting knife — and I think that no one I know would be, uh, _imprudent_ enough to offer that stranger a lift — and, I think to myself, no, I don’t think _anyone_ is likely to stop and welcome the guy into their car. And say that, later, my kid and I hear on the news that someone driving along that stretch of road apparently _did_ pick up a hitchhiker, and got knifed to death by someone who apparently swiped their cash; maybe it was a robbery-gone-wrong thing, who can say? And it occurs to me that — just as I assumed that no one in general would be ‘imprudent’ enough to pick up such a hitchhiker — I’ve been assuming that my kid in particular wouldn’t be so ‘imprudent’. So: shall I, _upon clearing my throat,_ politely limit myself to saying that the victim (a) who of course didn’t deserve to be killed, (b) seems to have been — though, gosh, I hesitate to use such strong language — ‘imprudent?’ ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/148 "2024-04-14T21:54:16Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > What brought this on was reading about the situation with Truth Social and that some investors are likely to take a bath. I don’t feel sorry for them. Anyone who got into bed with Truth Social should have known better. Is it wrong for me to assign them some blame? Is it ever right to blame the victim, even a little? Kevin Drum feels sorry for Truth Social retail investors: > In this case, “retail investors” is a euphemism for “suckers we can drain of cash.” I feel sorry for these guys no matter how demented they sound. They’re going to lose everything, just like all the retail investors who invested in Trump’s casinos in the '90s, and all because the country’s greatest con man has them in his sights. He doesn’t even need the money. He just figures it’s out there, and if he ruins the lives of a hundred thousand fans to get it, why not? > **[“Retail investors” is the nice word for the force behind Truth Social - Kevin...](https://jabberwocking.com/retail-investors-is-the-nice-word-for-the-force-behind-truth-social/)** > > The Washington Post has a piece today about Truth Social that describes how proud they are that they have hundreds of thousands of retail investors: Jerry Dean McLain first bet on former president Donald Trump’s Truth Social two years ago.... That... There’s nothing contradictory about blaming the victim and feeling sorry for the victim at the same time. Feelings don’t contradict: statements of logic and fact do. That said, Truth Social outside investors have been irresponsible. Diplomacy: is it really needed? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Okay, but: how far does some throat clearing get you? Politeness and manners get you pretty far I say. Throat clearing is merely stating preliminaries that shouldn’t need to be said, but indeed do. Like, for example, the victim didn’t deserve the violence inflicted on them - the perp is the one who is guilty. Now then regarding the vic’s conduct… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/149 "2024-04-14T21:59:09Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say no one should be killed/kidnapped/raped whether what they’re doing is legal or illegal. So if someone’s life is in danger from let’s say an intruder, it is not OK to kill them in self-defense or the defense of another? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/150 "2024-04-14T22:05:17Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Say I see a guy by the side of the road, and I can’t see his face but can see that he’s looking to hitch a ride, and can also see that he’s got a big broad-bladed hunting knife — and I think that no one I know would be, uh, _imprudent_ enough to offer that stranger a lift — and, I think to myself, no, I don’t think _anyone_ is likely to stop and welcome the guy into their car. And say that, later, my kid and I hear on the news that someone driving along that stretch of road apparently _did_ pick up a hitchhiker, and got knifed to death by someone who apparently swiped their cash; maybe it was a robbery-gone-wrong thing, who can say? > > And it occurs to me that — just as I assumed that no one in general would be ‘imprudent’ enough to pick up such a hitchhiker — I’ve been assuming that my kid in particular wouldn’t be so ‘imprudent’. > > So: shall I, _upon clearing my throat,_ politely limit myself to saying that the victim (a) who of course didn’t deserve to be killed, (b) seems to have been — though, gosh, I hesitate to use such strong language — ‘imprudent?’ I think I’d just say something along the lines of ‘wow. Did you see this in the news? Do you think that was the hitchhiker with the knife we passed on the road? A really good thing we didn’t stop and pick him up!’ No need to discuss the person who did stop. And I’d also ask my kid if they got a look at the hitchhiker’s face; and, even if neither of us had, I’d call the police and report having seen him. Anything else we had noticed about him, or even the time, might be useful – and apparently, in that hypothetical, I’d at least noticed the hitchhiker’s apparent gender. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/151 "2024-04-14T22:17:57Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > No need to discuss the person who did stop. And it’s possible that the ‘person who did stop’ never had someone politely clear their throat and mention that people who stop in such a situation may well be doing something — to use a harsh word — _imprudent._ Possibly ‘the person who did stop’ could have instead learned from someone else’s mistake back when, if the cautionary tale had been helpfully explained in terms of — dare I say it? — _imprudence._ ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/152 "2024-04-14T22:37:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And it’s possible that the ‘person who did stop’ never had someone politely clear their throat and mention that people who stop in such a situation may well be doing something — to use a harsh word — _imprudent._ Possibly ‘the person who did stop’ could have instead learned from someone else’s mistake back when, if the cautionary tale had been helpfully explained in terms of — dare I say it? — _imprudence._ Or if they’d seen such a story in the news – without anybody going on about the victim’s “imprudence”. That I suspect would have worked just as well. Why do you feel the need to go on about the victim, instead of just saying that such situations can be dangerous? For that matter, maybe they’d had so many warnings about “imprudence” that they stopped in defiance of them. Or maybe they knew the hitchhiker, and that’s why they stopped. Quite a lot of people who are murdered are the victims of somebody they know. Warning people of “stranger danger” can backfire. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/153 "2024-04-14T22:47:50Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Or if they’d seen such a story in the news – without anybody going on about the victim’s “imprudence”. That I suspect would have worked just as well. Why do you feel the need to go on about the victim, instead of just saying that such situations can be dangerous? Well, look, I’d like to learn from my mistakes. And I’d like to learn from mistakes made by other people, too. And it seems to me that a first step in the process, in either case, is starting off by noting that _someone made a mistake,_ if, as it happens, someone _did._ Sometimes it’s me, and I note that I’ve made a mistake. Sometimes it’s someone else, and I — note that they made a mistake. It seems to me to be easier to learn from someone’s mistake if you _note that they made a mistake._ It seems like you could otherwise wind up in a situation where someone does something _imprudent_ despite having heard that Such Situations Can Be Dangerous — at which point you might wind up saying “but, but, but; I suspected that just seeing the story in the news, without anyone going on about ‘imprudence,’ would have sufficed! Oh, had I but known that they could have learned from someone else’s mistake, if only I’d accurately mentioned that fact instead of just saying that such situations can be dangerous! I could’ve prefaced it with some pithy movie quote about how Deserve’s Got Nothing To Do With It — but I could’ve then politely cleared my throat and added that, oh, incidentally, that was imprudence!’ ---
**Author:** ![Midtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@Midtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Midtown)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/154 "2024-04-14T23:03:53Z")
White male walks through Watts wearing a KKK robe. Gets his ass kicked. Was wearing a vicious racist robe an”imprudent” decision or did he know he was gonna get his ass kicked. Was the white male wearing a KKK robe a victim of violence? Are the citizens of Watts guilty while the KKK guy has no responsibility for the situation? It’s a free country, racist white people can wear whatever they want. A person takes out 100k student loans. They major in underwater basket weaving. They graduate, can’t find a job in their chosen field. Are they the victim of the banking system? Or did they make an imprudent decision? Scrolling through this thread I think there are some obvious “victim is not to blame” examples. But how one defines “victim” is a very big part of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/155 "2024-04-15T00:07:12Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say no one should be killed/kidnapped/raped whether what they’re doing is legal or illegal. > > So if someone’s life is in danger from let’s say an intruder, it is not OK to kill them in self-defense or the defense of another? I’d say it’s not OK in an absolute sense, but it might be the lesser of two evils. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/156 "2024-04-15T00:23:23Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’d say it’s not OK in an absolute sense, but it might be the lesser of two evils But what do you mean by _“say it’s not OK”,_ there? If it were up to you, would you choose to fine them or lock them up or sentence them to perform hours of community service or whatever — or would you sort of let them go their own way? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/157 "2024-04-15T00:54:19Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’d say it’s not OK in an absolute sense, but it might be the lesser of two evils. So if you have to kill to stay alive, it’s still evil? Just not as evil as letting the intruder shoot you in the face? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/158 "2024-04-15T01:00:29Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’d say it’s not OK in an absolute sense, but it might be the lesser of two evils. I just don’t understand this perspective. And I’m not a gun guy (I don’t own any), and I think all those “stand your ground” laws are cowboy bullshit, just evil. But surely it’s not an evil act to defend yourself with deadly force if there’s no reasonable alternative or way to avoid a confrontation with someone who intends grievous harm. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/159 "2024-04-15T01:11:40Z")
> [@Midtown](#): > > A person takes out 100k student loans. They major in underwater basket weaving. They graduate, can’t find a job in their chosen field. Are they the victim of the banking system? Or did they make an imprudent decision? Got a more realistic example? While you _might_ if you look hard enough find a class in underwater basket weaving, there is no way in hell you can major in it. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984/160 "2024-04-15T01:25:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But what do you mean by _“say it’s not OK”,_ there? > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So if you have to kill to stay alive, it’s still evil? > [@Stratocaster](#): > > I just don’t understand this perspective If I were in a position where I had to kill an intruder in order to save the life of myself or someone I care about, I don’t think that, afterward, I’d be thinking “That was OK.” I would be at least a bit traumatized and would be thinking “That was awful. But I had no choice” (or at least, no better choice). I was agreeing with @Broomstick that “…no one should be killed…,” at least in an absolute, ideal-world sense. If I’m in a situation where it’s defensible to kill someone, I’ve left the world of what should, ideally, happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-if-ever-is-it-appropriate-to-blame-the-victim/999984.md?page=9)