# When, in human history, did the concept of paid, sustained (not contractual, not ad hoc) employment become a thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 30, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528 "2025-09-30T14:55:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/1 "2025-09-30T14:55:40Z")
Paid employment is mentioned a in the Bible (for example, [Ruth 2](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ruth%202&version=NIV)) in the context of day laborers. And of course, we know that the Pyramids were built not by slaves, but by paid laborers – but I asume their emplyment was strictly _ad hoc_ and that the builders were not employees, as a person in 2025 would understand the concept of employment, of ACME Pyramid Building LLC, but rather people who were expected to do the job until it was done (independent contractors, if you will). Skilled tradespeople existed, such as Jesus of Nazareth (carpenter) or Paul of Tarsus (leatherworker), but I imagine their system consisted of masters and apprentices and not bosses and employees as we would understand them. And of course in those days, slaves did most of the grunt work, including, I assume, housekeeping and such. Do we know when the concept of indefinite, paid employment became a thing? Define “paid employment” as you would your own job – you show up so many days per week to do a job that is expected of you, you get paid a certain rate at certain intervals, and you and your employer both understand that the relationship is voluntary (you are neither a conscript nor a slave). The relationship lasts for as long as you are both happy with it (or until you are no longer needed or whatever). Were I to hazard a guess, I would say that the first paid employees who were neither day laborers nor slaves were probably household help (of the very wealthy, obviously), who likely got paid a pittance and who likely were treated horribly, but they weren’t slaves and they still had a job waiting for them when they woke up the next day. Chattel slavery in Western Europe largely went away in the fifth-sixth century, so I’m guessing around that time??? What do Economics and History textbooks say about this? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/2 "2025-09-30T16:31:25Z")
I think it was the industrial revolution that created modern wage jobs. A factory isn’t like a field. A field only needs work during certain times of the year and that amount of work varies. So if you’re hiring people to work in a field, you want to be able to hire them by the day. But a factory always needs the same amount of work, day after day. So you want a steady work force that will show up each day. So you hire people on an ongoing basis and expect them to do the same work every day. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/3 "2025-09-30T16:36:05Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Were I to hazard a guess, I would say that the first paid employees who were neither day laborers nor slaves were probably household help (of the very wealthy, obviously), who likely got paid a pittance and who likely were treated horribly, but they weren’t slaves and they still had a job waiting for them when they woke up the next day. I think the situation here is different. Servants evolved out of household staff. If you were a noble, you had a bunch of people in your household that did the work. In exchange, you were expected to provide for their needs. House servants derived from this idea. Your butlers and maids and gardeners were part of your household not just hired employees. I think once the idea of being a paid employee emerged in factories it then filtered back into other areas like house servants. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/4 "2025-09-30T16:55:18Z")
Medieval apprentices (and presumably assistants) for tradesmen probably fall in the same category - it’s an ongoing business. It may need certain help. An apprentice may hav been treated like a member of the family (small shop) or servant (larger shop). But the concept of permanent work/employment probably evolved with the businesses that had steady functions rather than seasonal ones. Pay by the day (or week) would be logical in the days before computers and literacy. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/5 "2025-09-30T17:02:18Z")
Probably civil service, as in various functionaries carrying out assigned tasks in the administration for a regular allowance or salary. I’d say as far back as Sumer or old kingdom Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/6 "2025-09-30T17:06:06Z")
I would think it became a think when the Industrial Age blossomed into being. Factories, assembly lines, mass production, etc wasn’t seasonal, it was steady and ongoing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/7 "2025-09-30T17:15:53Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Medieval apprentices (and presumably assistants) for tradesmen probably fall in the same category - it’s an ongoing business. It may need certain help. An apprentice may hav been treated like a member of the family (small shop) or servant (larger shop). But the concept of permanent work/employment probably evolved with the businesses that had steady functions rather than seasonal ones. Pay by the day (or week) would be logical in the days before computers and literacy. My understanding is that the economic view back then was different than what we have now. The basic idea in medieval society was that everyone had a place where they fit in and a society was seen as a system which worked because every individual was doing their piece of it. For artisans, this was expressed through the guild system. The economic ideal back then was not that individuals were competing to make the best products for the best prices and consumers would reward those who did the best job. The guild ideal was that society needed a certain amount of products on an ongoing basis and therefore you needed an amount of artisans who would produce that amount of products. Guilds existed to regulate the amount of artisans working in a business, the amount of products they each produced, the way they made those products, and the amount they sold them for. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/8 "2025-09-30T17:23:19Z")
Without machines production is labor-limited, and without transport markets are limited even if you could produce more. So although there are a handful of precedents (pottery for export by ship was made assembly-line in the Greco-Roman era), the idea of being able to expand your widget business indefinitely is a distinctly Industrial Era innovation. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/9 "2025-09-30T17:32:51Z")
Even academics have difficulty discerning the line between servants and apprentices and true paid laborers with rights and powers. > **[Working for Wages 1300-1800 | Social History Portal](https://www.socialhistoryportal.org/news/articles/110226)** > In the period between the 13th and 18th centuries the wage-earning population was, among others, employed as servants (in households, husbandry and work shops), apprentices and journeymen in crafts, mercenaries, migratory workers, and more or less proletarianised wage labourers. For the historian it is often not easy to distinguish wage labour from labour service based on feudal or domanial relations, from bonded (‘indentured’) labour or from self-employment. The ‘freedom’ of labour may sometimes have been restricted to the act of entry into an institutionally defined relationship, but may in other cases have resulted in real bargaining power in what, at a certain stage of development, might be called a ‘labour market’. The restrictions on the market character of relations are, for instance, apparent in the curious ‘stickiness’ of wages during a large part of the indicated period. > Literature: > Bavel, B. J.P., van 'Rural wage labour in the sixteenth-century Low Countries: an assessment of the importance and nature of wage labour in the countryside of Holland, Guelders and Flanders, _Continuity and Change_ 21:1 (2006) 37-72 Blondé, Bruno, Eric Vanhaute & Michèle Gland (eds), _Labour and labour markets between town and countryside (Middle Ages - 19th century)_ (Turnhout 2001) Dyer, C., _An Age of Transition? Economy and Society in England in the Later Middle Ages_ (Oxford, 2005) Klatt, Wolfgang, _Treuepflichten im Arbeitsverhältnis_ (Pfaffenweilier 1990) Prak, Maarten (ed), _Early Modern Capitalism: Economic and Social Change in Europe, 1400-1800_. (London & New York 2001) Steinfeld, Robert J., _The Invention of Free Labor: The Employment Relation in English and American Law and Culture, 1350-1870_ (Chapel Hill & London 1991) Vries, J. de, ‘How did pre-industrial labour markets function?’, in: George Grantham en Mary MacKinnon (eds.), _Labour market evolution. The economic history of market integration, wage flexibility and the employment relation_ (Londen 1994) 39-63 Woodward, D., _Men at Work: Labourers and Building Craftsmen in the Towns of Northern England, 1450-1750_, (Cambridge 1995) No question that as everyone is saying the Industrial Revolution drew a large and visible line. It did not create a labor market from scratch, however, but drew on earlier precedents over centuries. ---
**Author:** ![We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@We\_re\_wolves\_not\_werewolves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/We_re_wolves_not_werewolves)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/10 "2025-09-30T17:36:00Z")
I would argue soldiers are an example of paid employees, and certainly it appears Roman empire soldiers were considered as such. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/11 "2025-09-30T17:38:32Z")
On the other hand if indentured servants who receive a stipend don’t count, then soldiers who are _definitely_ not free to quit whenever they want probably don’t either. > [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > the curious ‘stickiness’ of wages during a large part of the indicated period. What does stickiness mean in this context? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/12 "2025-09-30T17:57:10Z")
This. Sumerian temple attendants, I’d say. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/13 "2025-09-30T18:12:24Z")
I think the key divide is over what obligations the employer has to the workers. If you were a general, you weren’t just paying your soldiers. You were assuming an obligation to feed them and shelter them and provide them with goods they needed to live. The same was true for a home owner employing a house servant. Modern employers don’t have this relationship with their workers. The transaction here if the employer pays the worker a given amount of money to preform a given amount of work. And that’s it. The worker is expected to provide for themselves with the money they’re given. There is no sense of obligation put upon the employer to take care of their workers. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/14 "2025-09-30T18:15:43Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > What does stickiness mean in this context? Lack of fluctuation over time. AI, but good: > Economics: Sticky wages and prices > > One of the most notable historical applications of “stickiness” is in economics, specifically regarding “sticky wages” and “sticky prices.” This concept explains why certain prices and wages do not immediately adjust to new market conditions, such as during a recession. > > - **19th-century origins** : The foundations of sticky wages can be traced to economic observations in the 19th century, though the term was formalized later. Economists noted that nominal wages—the wage paid in dollar terms—tend to be “downwardly rigid,” meaning workers resist any pay cuts, even if the real wage (the purchasing power of that wage) increases due to falling prices. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/15 "2025-09-30T18:43:55Z")
Soldiers come to mind - maybe not all but a base of them, as well as tax collectors. Sailors in the business of trade too would seem to be more of what we consider employees which seems to go way back. (biblically Jonah’s boarding the ship comes to mind). Jesus tells a parable about a servant who can negotiate contracts on behold of his master. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/16 "2025-09-30T19:31:56Z")
I thought tax collectors worked on the franchise model: keep what they can collect minus their quota. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/17 "2025-09-30T19:52:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Sailors in the business of trade too would seem to be more of what we consider employees which seems to go way back. I don’t think they qualify under the OP’s terms. > [@HeyHomie](#): > > you show up so many days per week to do a job that is expected of you, you get paid a certain rate at certain intervals, Sailors historically were paid from the profits on the voyage, so at the end of the trip not at regular intervals. And then they had to find another captain to take them on. Essentially they were contract workers on specific projects, even the ones who regularly worked with one captain. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/18 "2025-09-30T19:56:24Z")
And traditionally they were contracted for the length of the voyage round-trip; jumping ship was a crime. To the point that before reform legislation was passed, [the US Supreme Court ruled](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Other_cases_of_involuntary_servitude) that forcibly returning a sailor to his ship was a grandfathered exception to the ban on slavery! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2025, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/19 "2025-09-30T21:55:52Z")
My guess is also soldiers - not necessarily regular military, but rather mercenaries, especially of the “personal retainer” type: bodyguards, security guards, castle men-at-arms and so on. Permanently hired muscle. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2025, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528/20 "2025-10-01T02:24:45Z")
Several of Jesus’ parables in the Bible, particularly in the gospel of Matthew, mention servants, and sometimes there are servants who oversee other servants. A few of the parables explicitly state that the servants handle money. This implies that some of the servants must have had a long-term relationship with their employer and built up a level of trust that an ordinary day laborer wouldn’t have. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-did-the-concept-of-paid-sustained-not-contractual-not-ad-hoc-employment-become-a-thing/1023528.md?page=2)